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Old 07-05-2007, 08:34 AM
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just wondering self etching primer

Does anyone know of any compatibility no no's regarding self etching primer and top coats? in other words can it be used, self etching primer/ high build primer/ top coat? or Self etching primer/ top coat, these are the two scenarios I am trying to get information about .... thanks in advance, I think I remember hearing that self etching primer is all good except with lacquers

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Old 07-05-2007, 10:33 AM
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One thing not to use it against is bodyfiller.
The acid in etch primer works against body fillers.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:35 AM
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I use a primer between etch and BC the type depending on what Im doing ,eg. fiberglass gets polyester primer most everything else gets 2K. Now, I haven't had a chance to try some of the state of the art primers, I see for example that SEM (and others) have a DTM (direct to metal) primer that I think is compatible with your basecoat. After I use up my existing supply that will be what I try next. AL
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Old 07-05-2007, 12:27 PM
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I quit using etch long ago.
I use epoxy now for all bare metal, it's really good stuff and you
can put anything over it including body fillers.
It'll give you the best protection, adhesion and seals it better too.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:23 PM
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Some self etch primers can be used as a surfacer and also topcoated, some can't. But all are soluable and will soak up solvent like a sponge-like lacquer primer... This makes for slow curing of the topcoat, late solvent evaporation, dieback of gloss, delamination, and it compromises the durability of the topcoat. If you use a self etch you're best off using a urethane 2K primer or sealer over it before topcoat. Or better yet skip the self etch completely, sand the surface for proper texture, clean it well and apply 2 coats of quality epoxy primer then your surfacer-this way there's no compatibility problems, no 1K products to soak up solvent, and you'll have a good durable base protecting that bare metal-it will outlive you and I if done properly.
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:46 PM
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I agree with Baddbob, etching primer is extremely OVER rated. So what does etching primer do? It forms a TEXTURE on the bare metal so that paint will mechanically bond to it.

If you have sanded or media blasted the metal, there is NO need for etching primer. The metal has a texture due to the sanding or blasting.

Just cover the bare metal with Epoxy Primer/Sealer and go for it. You can apply your top coats or do your body work right on top of the epoxy.

Frank
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:00 AM
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How’s that hopey-changey thing
 
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OK information noted, I am using the self etching primer for protection of the completed body and metal work. It is in the plan to apply a primer coat and then the block sanding before TC. Thanks again .

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Old 07-06-2007, 09:25 AM
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you wont get any protection from etch primer. moisture will go right through it. use epoxy.
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Old 07-06-2007, 05:07 PM
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Old Shine is right. There is NO protection with etch primer.

Frank
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Old 07-07-2007, 11:54 AM
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Just for the record, at least one major auto paint manufacturer recommends that their brand of 2K etching primer be applied to any bare metal areas prior to any other coatings being applied as a step in their "Best Demonstrated Practices."

I don't think it's accurate to state that self-etching primers do not provide any protection, and compared to some more inferior methods they are an easy way to protect metal and obtain adhesion for subsequent topcoats.

That said, I know of at least one DTM (direct-to-metal) epoxy that blows any self-etch primer away for virtually all applications, but some other epoxies require metal treatment for maximum adhesion and are therefore not suitable for all repair scenarios.

To the question, all self-etch primers are different. The P-sheet will reveal some of the requirements, and experience will inform us of others. If you have a specific product in mind, name it and see what everyone thinks.
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Old 07-07-2007, 02:56 PM
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I have a little "test panel" photo for you on the subject. I am in no means saying that etch primers are better, quite honestly, I like all of us, I don't have any first hand technical info or industry testing on the subject to offer anything other than observation. I know what the companies tell me, I can read tech sheets and I can read lifetime warrantees. We can debate all day long and then some about why the big boys require an etch primer for their life time warrantees, which they do. Is it to sell more product, yeah, I guess so. If a company says "Buy this" it is to make money, seldom to give them a warm gooy feeling that they are helping their fellow man. Ask the salesman at the company who pushes epoxy, they will tell you etch primer sucks, ask the salesman at the company who pushes etch and they will tell you it is added protection. Personally, I think in the real world EITHER are going to give you "enough" protection.

The big boys wouldn't put BILLIONS of dollars on the line in the form of warrantees if the etch wasn't going to back them up. I mean, ask yourself, how many BILLIONS of dollars to you think DuPont sells in paint products? They have HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of cars being painted every single day I would assume. We are talking BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars at stake. They could buy and sell the little epoxy primer distributors with their friggin executive bath room paper towels and hand soap! Yet they put BILLIONS of dollars on the line with a warrantee that includes etch primer....hmmmm, it must be at the very least "decent".

Below is a photo of a couple of display panels I made when I was a paint rep 10 years ago. They have been protected some what in the garage and out on tables in marketing conferences and trade shows and stuff like that. But in Oct of last year (about 8 months ago) in the middle of the winter I put these panels out behind my garage to see how they would hold up.

These are S-W products (distributed thru NAPA stores under the Martin Senour label) but I assume they are performing similar to most any acid etch and "wash" primers by other manufacturers. I am NOT pushing these, this is just a discussion about etch primers in general.

The one on the left is Trio/PRIME #8847 (S-W number E2G980) similar to DuPont 615S. These panels were bare metal, scuffed and shot. The panel was up against another one so it ended up bare metal right at the edge. It is rusted pretty bad there at the edge, but holding up perfectly well in the middle of the Trio/PRIME. The next primer on the panel is 5005 waterborne then a urethane "Tint/SEAL", then an enamel SS.

The other panel has a much superior product, a "wash" primer. It has total bare metal at the bottom rusted real bad. But the "Vinyl wash" M-S number 8827 (S-W# E2G973) primer looks like a million bucks. One thing that is kinda interesting is that the stuff is VERY thin when applied, not even 1.0 m! It is transparent, you can see the shiny metal thru it! On top of that is 4.6 Epoxy M-S #5120 (S-W #PSE4600) that by the way is COMPLELY and TOTALLY insoluable. I did a lacquer thinner rub test and ZERO color came off (unlike the TranStar Epoxy that I tested).

Here is that Vinyl wash over bare metal rusting all to hell and it still looks like a million bucks.

Again, not saying much of anything other than "here it is" take it for what it is.

Brian

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Old 07-07-2007, 09:05 PM
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[QUOTE=MARTINSR]I have a little "test panel" photo for you on the subject. I am in no means saying that etch primers are better, quite honestly, I like all of us, I don't have any first hand technical info or industry testing on the subject to offer anything other than observation. I know what the companies tell me, I can read tech sheets and I can read lifetime warrantees. We can debate all day long and then some about why the big boys require an etch primer for their life time warrantees, which they do. Is it to sell more product, yeah, I guess so. If a company says "Buy this" it is to make money, seldom to give them a warm gooy feeling that they are helping their fellow man. Ask the salesman at the company who pushes epoxy, they will tell you etch primer sucks, ask the salesman at the company who pushes etch and they will tell you it is added protection. Personally, I think in the real world EITHER are going to give you "enough" protection.

The big boys wouldn't put BILLIONS of dollars on the line in the form of warrantees if the etch wasn't going to back them up. I mean, ask yourself, how many BILLIONS of dollars to you think DuPont sells in paint products? They have HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of cars being painted every single day I would assume. We are talking BILLIONS upon BILLIONS of dollars at stake. They could buy and sell the little epoxy primer distributors with their friggin executive bath room paper towels and hand soap! Yet they put BILLIONS of dollars on the line with a warrantee that includes etch primer....hmmmm, it must be at the very least "decent".

QUOTE]

Brian, if those test panels were in the elements here in the U.P. you'd see a much faster failure rate.

Yeah, you can bet DuPont and other companies have studied and tested all sorts of products and yes they know what works best-but you also have to consider that they market what they feel will sell and work for the collision repair market. The way I see it is the major paint companies push self etch and wash type primers for one reason-increased adhesion with ease of use. Let's face it, production shops do not have the time needed to use epoxy primers-these are slow curing products that just don't fit in a high production type shop. And there is less chance of error using wash primers-no texture needed and cleanliness is less of a concern. The paint companies know what works best but if Jethro is doing the prep and prime then he better be using a product that doesn't require much attention for detail.

IMO, quality epoxy over a properly prepped metal surface can't be beat. I've seen what lasts and have been monitoring it for quite awhile. Road salt kills. Bob
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Old 07-07-2007, 10:15 PM
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I am with you Bob, it is what it is. I only post it because I have heard over and over how it is porous and will rust in only a few days. It just isn't so, it is simply "an other way".

These panels did sit in dew, wet as can be for months. Believe me, bare metal looks pretty funky pretty fast around here in the winter.

I sort of agree with all the reasons why the paint companies say to use etch. But think about it, if epoxy is more "user friendly" why wouldn't they want that? I mean, most everyone sells an epoxy as well. That 4.6 on my test panel was a product we pushed pretty heavily. It was pushed as a DTM as well as a sealer, I sold a bunch of it for both of those uses. The collision industry certainly is less of a gamble for an "inferior" product and I have heard that argument from epoxy salesmen too. But again, etch was recommended under the epoxy, this goes for fleet uses as well as collision. So they have etch in their fleet warrantees as well. Instructing people to apply etch on thousands of Coke, UPS and hundreds of other nationwide fleets tractors and trailers. We are talking logging trucks, sand blasted track layers, etc, they say to apply etch primer. They are putting BILLIONS of dollars on the line.

It just can't be THAT bad, that is what I am saying.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 07-07-2007 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 05:39 AM
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The paint companies are not really putting that much on the line, when it comes to collision shops. They know about statistics. The average person only keeps a car(driver) for 3-5 years. They know that. They know also. that the owner has usually had the vehicle for more than a day before it goes into a collision shop. The owner is also likely to get rid of a car even sooner if it has had paint/body work done to it, as they are now not as attached to their "damaged vehicle". That all means that the "lifetime warrantee" is only for a very short time. Like Harbor Freight, who a lot of people talk bad about, has a "Lifetime warrantee" on most of their hand tools. They know the odds of loosing money on replacing the bad ones are not very good.

If I was going to get rid of a vehicle, and not figure on keeping it for a long time, I might use etch primer, if I had some. It will make the job go out the door faster. Since I don't do "temporary repairs" at home, I use epoxy, because I know it's better.

Aaron
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:51 AM
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I'm totally with you Aaron on the collision industry aspect. And I can agree that they are working with the "Odds", that is the basis for every "insurance", simple odds.

But they also say to use it in their fleet recommendations. Fleets don't keep their tractors for a couple of years, they keep them for a "lifetime" driving them MANY hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles. Come to think of it, they don't have "lifetime" warrantees on the fleets..hmmmmmmm. They have 6 years or something like that, at least that was the last I heard. That may be it, the ODDS are it will last six years.

Interesting, marketing is an interesting animal.

Brian
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