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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2010, 06:55 PM
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It has some idle time and some town driving with about 18 miles highway. Put them in yestarday. The previous plugs I had that was in there for a month looked the same as them.
Eric
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Old 04-12-2010, 06:29 AM
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eric,
now that the idle Hg is 14,,,

next step/next test is re-gap the plugs to .040 and drive it for atleast full week plus...
(lol,,you would need a microscope to read a plug with that few miles worth of just normal driving)

post after a couple of days worth of miles if the idle sputter went away or is still there "after" re-setting the plugs gap...
(it's a diagnose test for next likely sputter source since it wasn't the spacer)

my $.02:
the minor amount of dry black carbon that is on the inside steel part of the plug and lower threads doesn't harm anything,,,don't worry about it!!!
(hope this makes sense,,,a oem stock/low lift/gentle ramps cam valve train geometry movements has a very tough time controlling every last bit of oil oil on the valve stems,,,a 220/230 cam configuration/motion is putting all kinds of more stresses/flexes and side loads and vibrations on everything)
heck, plugs are only a coarse thread worth of seal,,,so "how" sharp was the tool that cut the threads in the heads and on the plugs????

if/when you find wet oil/black on the ceramic insulator and electrodes,,,then you need to do some testing for the source...

"IF" you were interpeting the dry black on the plugs steel shell as a PCV oil pick up problem,,,not true...

re: choke for warm up
a proper motor warm up choke also has a cam or a solonoid on the linkage to change/increase the fuel feed to work off the primaries curcuit by giving it some throttle when engaged to match more rpms...
"because"
the amount of gas fed by the idle curcuit is a constant fixed amount regardless of rpms based on the screws...
and most idle circuits can only feed about roughly 900rpms correct amount worth of gas...

rpms go up with just the flapper closed because Hg goes up (due to the venturi air flow restriction) which makes more rotational TQ output "but" your leanest set idle just went way way lean with more rpms because the gas amount didn't also increase...
(manual flapper choke is really only intended to help get a motor to start like on a lawn mower in "start" position)

you are SMART for letting it idle to warm up!!!
COLD "is" hell on earth (!!!!) for rapid motor parts wear (with a load on it driving) as this attached chart shows....
(do note that is only a 60 hour test)

the now 14Hg idle will help the dead cold motor get to a stable idle much quicker with no choke so you can go back in the house on cold days...
rpms/2=power strokes making heat,,,not much difference between 600 choked power strokes versus 400 no stroke over a full minute of time...

LOL,,,oem cars have to have a warm up choke because women just turn the key and go!!!
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Last edited by red65mustang; 04-12-2010 at 06:40 AM.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2010, 07:01 AM
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eric,
punch line first:
darn good chance adding the spacer has screwed up the linkage geometry itself and/or caused the idle rpms screw to now need to be set to far in to idle right due to the spacer air flow change....

that's very likely the source of the sputter!!!

idle rpms should not increase when vac adv is plugged into a timed post...
(because the blades are closed)

your 100 rpms increase when you plug in the vac adv says the linkage rpms screw is set right at the transition point from idle to primaries fuel feed...
(the blades are open enough that the timed port hole is seeing some vacuum and adding timing)

(you don't have a under-powered car where a 4 hole spacer could help low rpms TQ output by a tiny bit driving normal )

if I understood your post correct,,,you don't have to use the spacer with the new carb...

take the spacer off as the next sputter cause test...

(instead of re-gaping the plugs)

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-12-2010 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 04-12-2010, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric32
It has some idle time and some town driving with about 18 miles highway. Put them in yestarday. The previous plugs I had that was in there for a month looked the same as them.
Eric
What is the problem that you are having? I know originally the plugs were fouling, but I'm not sure after rereading the thread where you're at, problem-wise.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:47 PM
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Hello guys well I don't have time today to put my timing light on my truck to check for the vacuum advance but will later on i the week. I only have to use my carb spacer so my dual fuel line assembly will clear my intake heater core hose or else it hits it and I can't get my carb on.

I have checked my carb and I only have about .040 to .045 showing on transfer slot and that is withing spec according to my holley tuning book and there instructional dvd. I cracked open the secondary's just enough to let extra air in so primary's are not open too much. Transfer slot is not exposed in the rear. My previous plugs where gaped at .040 and there was no difference in how they ran or looked. I only gaped my new set to .045 cause that is what it calls for anyways.

To answer the question on my post problems am having is misses at warm up and it spits and sputters. Not really bad but enough to hear it. After engine warms up it mostly goes away but is still there at any rpm. Cruising at 65 mph I am around 3200 rpm and you can barley hear it but its there. I don't know why its getting worse but I got a better set of plug wires to put on in place of the cheap stock ones I got just to put on to rule out other issues I had once before. I just am stumped here as carb is tuned good and well and don't thing it's my cause here. I don't know what all of an affect a 4 hole spacer has on a dual plane intake manifold here.

As stated I always let it warm up for about 5 minutes or until the temperature guage starts to go up. I warm it up no more then 1500 rpm and let the rpm's go down after a few minutes but that is with me in it. In cold weather my choke does the same thing as me putting my gas pedal down to get 1500 rpm so it should not be the issue here. I even ran a colder set of plugs and there where not hot enough so my ngk's are what I need heat range wise. Any more info appreciated. Will try a few more things.

Eric
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2010, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric32
misses at warm up and it spits and sputters. Not really bad but enough to hear it. After engine warms up it mostly goes away but is still there at any rpm. Cruising at 65 mph I am around 3200 rpm and you can barley hear it but its there.
Judging by that, and by the looks of the plug, I would say give it more primary fuel. Jump up a couple jets and see how it responds.

Last edited by cobalt327; 04-12-2010 at 04:28 PM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2010, 04:21 PM
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Hello guys I was thinking on my vacuum advance. I have yet to hook it up to full manifold vacuum and see how it does and I was wondering about hook ups of vacuum lines. I only have two on the carb for full manifold and the back on is used for brakes and the front one for my vacuum modulator on my 350 turbo transmission. Can I put a T into my line for my tranny to hook up my vacuum advance to full manifold and would it work ok?

Thanks
Eric
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2010, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eric32
Can I put a T into my line for my tranny to hook up my vacuum advance to full manifold and would it work ok?
Yes! T-it into the modulator line. I thought that had been done already, might find an improvement.

Good luck.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-12-2010, 04:54 PM
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Eric, how often do you run it at WOT? Does that clean up the miss?
Unlike the others, it looks fat to me.
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:31 PM
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I have done some research on reading plugs and they say that the WOT deposit on the plug is deep in the plug at the base of the ceramics. You need a magnifing glass to see it correctly. The tan looks right to me but could be a little lean. You need to see what the deposit is on the base of the plug and see how far the black wraps around base and how deep it goes into the threads. Here is a good website: www.4secondsflat.com/Spark_plug_reading.html Some good reading.
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Old 04-12-2010, 05:36 PM
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When I am cruising you can just barley hear the miss but its nothing bad. The tachometer is nice and steady and at WOT I have not had it there for a long period of time cause its in my s 10 and it gets up to 100 mph pretty fast and I don't need to loose my license but as far as I can tell it's smooth but while cruising you can't hardly tell unless your really listening for it. I am going to hook up my vacuum advance to full manifold this thursday when I am off from work and hook up my timing light and see what I got and test drive it. I don't know for sure if my vacuum advance unit is adjustable or not. The distributor is an aftemarket but don't know what name brand since it came with the truck when I bought it. I just installed a performance rotor cap and coil on it.

Eric
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Old 04-12-2010, 09:29 PM
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tuning

Wow, there are a lot of ideas from a lot of places. If you really want to know whats going on install a wide band 02 sensor in the head pipe so you can see what the air fuel ratios are during all driving conditions. They are available from a number of places, not new technology but highly accurate. I ran a chassis dyno for 11 years during a time hat saw carbs and early fuel injecting both mechanical as well as electronic. Not all of the concepts discussed here are completely accurate. You have a purpose built engine that displays traits not too surprising for a modified engine using a carb for fuel supply. Try the wide band system, Bosch did tons of work with them and there quite accurate.
As for timing or lead settings they are determined by the efficiency of the combustion chamber design which determines the speed of oxidation or flame front travel. As for vacuum advance what is it's purpose. As throttle is applied the vacuum signal lessens until it is at 0 so at heavy load vacuum is virtually gone hence no advance at that point. Vacuum advance allows an increase in timing without engine load generating greater fuel economy for light to moderate throttle operation. The secondaries need to be closed at idle and lower throttle positions as there is no provision for fuel delivery adjustment in the situation, the typical idle fuel settings only effect the primary throttle bores. Most all really well tuned high performance engines that are naturally aspirated use single runner type of manifolds allowing fine tuning for each cylinder like in a Webber application. The picture I saw of a plug here didn't really indicate a problem in fuel delivery but without a dyno being available it is a guessing game to a degree. I have to admit my experience wasn't with domestic carb. engines, I worked with Mercedes Benz and with a USAC race team using fuel injected engines but the theories should be mostly the same. Good luck
Bill
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:35 AM
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eric,
don't make any changes at all till atleast 100 miles of driving and not until you take a pic of the plugs at that time...

right now with to no physical evidence to examine for guidance (the plugs condition) it is truly a 50/50 probability that it is a fuel or spark sourced problem causing the miss at 3200...

it's imparative that you test one step at a time starting with the most general to the most specific tests...
(or you will create a can of worms to sort out by trying "maybe this or that" will fix it)...

at 3200 cruise the amount of vac adv added is the same whether hooked to timed or manifold source....

on Thursday,,hook up your light and read the timing total at 3200 and 4000 with vac advance and post that here...
(it will tell us the max degrees that vac unit is adding to answer further changes)
..........................................

NO
your foot adding throttle=more gas is NOT the same as closing the choke butterfly=less air/higherHg to reach 1200 for warm up...

if you add a on/off switch controlled electric solonoid "linkage pusher" (from a junk yard) to the carb linkage for warm up with the butterfly open THAT is the same as your foot on the pedal to hold 1200....

maybe my choke post above wasn't composed clear enough??

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-13-2010 at 04:54 AM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 06:57 AM
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?????

Are you chasing an exhaust note at a light throttle drive condition. That may be nothing more than overlap in the cam set up. You didn't say what type of rockers you have installed, ratio etc. If you can weld or have a friend that can you again should use a wide band sensor to evaluate the situation. I believe a system is under 500, there are quite a few available. Science isn't as magical as other methods but it is a lot more accurate. It seems I have read that a sbc likes around 35 degrees total but as mentioned earlier you need to TDC the engine.
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:21 AM
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Bill,
just fyi...
all you need for A/F ratio reading is a accurate volt meter and a oxygen sensor for the pipe...
ex:
the narrow band oxygen sensors are analog range from 1 to 5 volts...
all that a $500 ratio reader does do is convert the volts scale value to A/F readings scale values display (most have only idiot lights read out)....
what volts = what A/F mix is published available info for all the sensors...
so if 3.2V displayed =14/1 ratio you can do the conversion in your head....

it's nice to know on a carbed motor that the mix "is" basically correct at cruise by testing A/F ratio...
but,,,
it is only a potential future test reference data number to compare to..
a carbed motor is truly a "dumb" motor by todays standards and can't adjust anything while actually driving to keep the ratio correct...

there are some "how to" with a meter articles on the web and some meter manuals do cover how to do it...

PS: you need a (newer) wide range capable O2 sensor to be able to test WOT ratio
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