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-   -   lacqer primer over sealer primer (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/lacqer-primer-over-sealer-primer-143839.html)

jake henderson 08-21-2008 12:45 PM

lacqer primer over sealer primer
 
Is it ok to spray lacquer primer over sealer primer?
I just want to know if it is Ok?
Thanks

Don Meyer 08-21-2008 02:34 PM

I would not use laquer products on a car. Tell us what you are trying to do so we can better answer your question.
Don

oldred 08-21-2008 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake henderson
Is it ok to spray lacquer primer over sealer primer?
I just want to know if it is Ok?
Thanks



It's not OK to spray lacquer primer over anything! :nono: Why are you using lacquer primer? That stuff is junk and will cause nothing but problems, it and the lacquer based 1k spot putty are both a recipe for disaster because both will continue to shrink for weeks or even months causing all kinds of problems. Even the economy 2k primers are far better than lacquer and since you will not need to use nearly as much of the 2k it will be cheaper too!

Countilaw 08-22-2008 10:47 PM

It's OK. I've been doing it for years. I keep some mixed Lacquer primer in a syphon cup all the time. It has worked for decades and still does.

I don't know why some people are so down on it. It dries a lot faster than 2K and any shrinkage is finished within minutes.

It shrinks until all the lacquer thinner as flashed, and then it's ready to sand.

Frank

oldred 08-22-2008 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Countilaw
and any shrinkage is finished within minutes.Frank


That is just plain wrong! That crap continues to shrink for days or weeks sometimes even months if it is applied heavy enough and that is a well known fact! Until I learned better I used both lacquer primer and putty not realizing at the time what was causing my problems, after switching to the 2 part materials it was like night and day there was so much difference after a few weeks. Also there is a tremendous difference in chip resistance when using the 2k products as compared to the lacquer, besides if you use the economy 2k products it will even be cheaper than lacquer so why on earth would anyone want to use that junk? Lacquer is old and outdated technology and to say it worked for years is misleading as it never worked really well, maybe OK for use with lacquer paint but not with todays paints. :nono:

kenseth17 08-23-2008 09:16 AM

Besides the fact that lacquer is outdated junk in todays paint world, It is possible the harsh solvents in the lacquer could wrinkle and lift an enamel or urethane product if it is applied over an enamel based product that hasn't cured enough. One of the things they taught us was enamels could be used over lacquers but lacquers not okay over enamels.

Many seem to think lacquer is cheap and easy so it makes it a good idea. But when you think about how much better and the greater film build of a 2k urethane, which can be sanded in a reasonable and normally sand realitively easy, and will have less shrinkage then a lacquer, I think the urethane is a better deal. Back in the years I used lacquer, I've had a few instances of bullsyes show up in the paint around repair areas, never once had that using a urethane. Sure lacquer can easily be found in a spray bomb, but if the lack of equiptment is the reason you are using spray bombs, you really should get the proper equiptment and not take shortcuts if you want to produce good long lasting results in the body and paint area.

matt167 08-23-2008 10:16 AM

I got a basic enamel based primer from NAPA ( Martin senour crossfire ) for somthing like $40 per gallon.. it is a 1k

oldred 08-23-2008 10:48 AM

I don't usually have much to say about paint unless I see someone about to make the same mistakes I once did and of the things I needed to learn about that was causing my problems lacquer probably topped the list! I just could not understand why after a few weeks or so I could still see sand scratches if the light was just right and sometimes they were apparent at anytime. I had already figured out that lacquer could not be applied heavy otherwise sandscratchs showing in the paint and seeing the edge of a repair after painting was almost inevitable but switching to 2 part epoxy and urethane primers eliminated these problems. Even if the lacquer did not shrink, which it WILL, if I understand this right the lacquer thinner can cause most surfaces to absorb solvents causing them to swell slightly, shrinking back long after the finish paint has been applied. Lacquer caused me many problems that simply went away with the switch to the 2k primers and as I said before if a person is really tied to a tight budget then the economy 2k is cheaper to use and far better so using lacquer makes zero sense. These problems with scratches showing, etc are not glaring flaws that standout like heavy sandscratches (not usually anyway but sometimes they are!) that were not properly finished but they are quite apparent to most people although I suppose they may be acceptable to others so I guess it just depends on how much pride a person takes in their work. Lacquer primer is junk and it's faults are well known, it will ruin otherwise nice paintwork and with the materials available today it just simply makes no sense to use it!

1930u 08-23-2008 08:31 PM

Lacquer products used to be a flat rate bodyman's best friend because you could turn the work out quickly. Back in my younger days I used to run a service shop. I would say that 9 out of 10 lacquer jobs always came back for something...checking, cracking, shrinking or blushing. Even the cars I did myself usually looked bad after 4 or 5 years. JMO most anything today is better than lacquer, even a spray can of enamel.

Rambo_The_Dog 08-23-2008 09:50 PM

I learned bodywork and painting starting back in 1980.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with lacquer based products - unless you're flat layzeeee doing bodywork.

If done correctly there is no more shrinkage than any catalyzed products I've seen. It has more to do with the quality of your bodywork and how far grit-wise you take the filler work out before you start priming.

Catalyzed filler primers have made slap hazard filler work the norm these days IMO

With the extraordinary costs and hazards of spraying modern catalyzed substrates and surfacers, it's no wonder laquer based products are making a resurgence, especially among home builders.

The final thing I'll say about lacquer - it's the only choice for many older cars if you really want a factory type finish or something that doesn't look like plastic.

Countilaw 08-23-2008 11:19 PM

I have used lacquer primer for years, as I have 2K primers.

If applied properly and sanded well, lacquer works fine. Or, it does for me. I use black lacquer primer for a guide coat as well. It dries very fast, sands easily and is cheap. About $40 a gallon. I haven't found any 2k that cheap.

Another thing, it does not set up in the cup. That's why I keep some in my syphon cup. It's easy to just grab the spray gun and apply a little primer.

With 2K, you have to use it all or waste it. It will set up in the cup. I just can't see pouring out good money because I mixed up a little to much 2K.

Shrinkage: If you lay the lacquer primer on really thick, you will get shrinkage. I usually spray on light coats, and sand in a few minutes. It fills small imperfections and blends the edges of plastic filler very well.

2k will shrink, it too has solvents in it. Down side, you have to wait several hours to sand 2k.

If any one can tell me where I can get 2k primer with it's activator and reducer with shipping and handling for less than $48.00 a gallon, I will surely be getting some.

Frank

shine 08-24-2008 06:52 AM

i have been a painter for 40 years. i dont do it as a hobby. lacquer is one of the hardest paints to use properly. it is also misused by most people who use it. people use it because they cant paint and think it wont run or sag so it must be easier. wrong. it is to be applied wet and thin. just about every home job done in lacquer will have a life of about a year. then it will check and have to be removed. any solvent will soak into and lift it including gas.

just for the record if you have to sand and buff lacquer you did it wrong.

oldred 08-24-2008 07:17 AM

Shine I don't think he was asking about using lacquer paint he is wanting to use lacquer primer.


Lacquer primer is a disaster in the making so if anyone wants to believe it wont shrink and ruin your paint go ahead and use it find out the hard way. The problems associated with using lacquer primer are well known and to insist it will not shrink anymore after a few minutes drying time is just simply ridiculous. Also buying $40 a gallon primer says volumes about the quality of a persons work and you can believe it or not but the cheaper 2k primers will cost less to use because that lacquer junk takes 2 to 3 times as much to do the same job!

flynbrian48 08-24-2008 07:56 AM

I would add that we used lacquer primers because that's all there was to use. The 2K primer/surfacers are better in every way. I'm a hobby painter, I do a couple of cars a year, and while it's hard to keep up with new chemistry, my results are far better, last far longer than the way I did things 20 years ago.

Materials DO cost more (it cost almost 800 to paint my '62 Impala) but I know that 10 years from now the car should look as good as it does right now. It sure wouldn't if it were painted with lacquer primers and acrylic enamel, my old favorites.

baddbob 08-24-2008 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shine
i have been a painter for 40 years. i dont do it as a hobby. lacquer is one of the hardest paints to use properly. it is also misused by most people who use it. people use it because they cant paint and think it wont run or sag so it must be easier. wrong. it is to be applied wet and thin. just about every home job done in lacquer will have a life of about a year. then it will check and have to be removed. any solvent will soak into and lift it including gas.

just for the record if you have to sand and buff lacquer you did it wrong.

Shine, the best lasting lacquer job I did was a purple candy job that got shot all in one day with the clear going on unreduced, wet and thick-totally opposite of what you're claiming. It held up for quite a few years and spent a few of those years in the Nevada sun uncovered. Many years ago an old timer told me the two most common mistake people make when shooting lacquer is over reducing and dryspraying, he claimed if the paint was over reduced that the paint lost some of the resin during evaporation. I have no idea if his claim is accurate but that candy job sure seemed to confirm he may be correct. I used lacquer for almost everything up untill about 1990.
Today I wouldn't use lacquer for anything.


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