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Old 01-13-2004, 11:55 AM
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Ladder bar alternatives

Hi All,
I need your opinions on ladder bars alternatives. I would like you use the upper control arm mounts as a anti-rotation mounting point. They are cast into the pig and are not being used since the rearend is now in a leaf sprung car. My leaves can not handle torque, their only 1 3/4" wide. I'm planning on around 300HP out of a 350/TH350 combo and the rear was originally out of a '78 Grand Prix. Okay guy/gals lets hear it!!!!


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Old 01-13-2004, 12:31 PM
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http://www.hotrodsandhemis.com/Traction.html
This is a link to a "how they work" sheet for Calvert Racings CalTrac Bars... http://www.calvertracing.com/
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/5...s-med.jpg?1445 This is a pic of the ones I am building for my Astro Van. I am using street rod style bushed rod ends with poly bushings to get away from the very expensive teflon lined rod ends.
These bars will work for your set up.

Mark

Last edited by astroracer; 01-13-2004 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:09 PM
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Thats some mighty fine UG'ing there Astro

Thanks for the link, time to to start detailing.......



Chris
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Old 01-13-2004, 01:19 PM
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Thanks Chris,
I've done all of that at home, right down to the fasteners...
I still need to measure the nine inch so I can get that in there but I'm far enough along that I've picked up all of the tubing and started detailing the pieces to build the subframe. I should have everything cut out this weekend and I'll try to throw some pics into my gallery.
Mark
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Old 01-13-2004, 05:43 PM
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Well if you are going to use some bars at the top. I would recomend running a tri. 4 link. You will have 2 bars running back from the front spring hangers to the rear, both ends have bushings. Then run 2 top bars from the points on the rear out to the side of the frame creating a v. those both have bushings also. The reason a lader bar set up won't work well is because it is solidly atached to the axle.
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Old 01-13-2004, 07:36 PM
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An upper bar to fix the axle rotation or "wrap up" combined with leaf springs reminds me of.....

Mopar Missile's "leaf link" set-up. It should be in a Mopar Performance "Chassis Manual"..?

The upper link arc will play with the pinion angle as the suspension goes through it's travel unless carefully thought out.
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Old 01-14-2004, 08:56 AM
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i like the idea of using the upper controll-arm mounts much better from an engineering standpoint, since it will resist spring roll up under both braking and acceleration. much like the Over-rider traction bars mounted on shelby racing mustangs, the splayed nature of the bars on your grawing also act like a panhard improving ride even more. and lastly ou can by mooving the attachment point or the upper controllarms up and down move the instant center of your rear suspension, much like on a 4 link and adjust the weight transfer at launch.. just one thing, be sure to run mono or i think you bands holding the leafs together will break eventuallt and make for some funny characteristics under braking when one side is differently sprung than the other

but all in your setup has some big advantages over underrider traction bars or caltrack bars, that do nothing for spring rollup under braking and nothing for lateral controll of rearend movement

just my 2 cents worth
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Old 01-14-2004, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by deuce_454
but all in your setup has some big advantages over underrider traction bars or caltrack bars, that do nothing for spring rollup under braking and nothing for lateral controll of rearend movement

just my 2 cents worth
There are a couple of issues here concerning traction and leaf spring control under acceleration. The CalTrac style bars will do this much more efficiently then any other style of traction bar (up to a point of course). They are actually more efficient then a ladder bar setup. The reason being is that they are acting directly on the spring. Ladder bars react to rear axle torque but do nothing to control spring wrap-up and, because they are hard connected to the rear axle, actually create a binding effect in any direction other then straight forward. This is why you will see many ladder bar cars with leaf spring floaters to free up the rear suspension.
As far as spring control under braking... this is usually not an issue because the rear tires will break lose long before the springs get into an "unwrapped" state bad enough to be of any concern.
Lateral control is another moot point with a leaf spring suspension. The leaves themselves contol lateral movement and any additional bars or links just add to the confusion and cause suspension bind.
The CalTrac style bars control leaf spring wrap-up, do not inhibit suspension travel or react adversely to brake application and are pretty simple to make and install. They are the way to go for any street driven leaf spring application and I will highly recommend them.
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Old 01-14-2004, 10:44 AM
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i wish carrol shelby had known what you know about moot points and non issues with rear leaf suspension before he installed over rider traction bars and panhard rod on the gt 350 R mustang that won the GT chanpionship in 66 in front of ferarri gto 250, and corvette.

what you are saying about caltecs is true regarding accelration, but they do not prevent wheelhop under braking and skipping under cornering... but if you only intend to go in a straight line i guess that dont matter anyway, But the point about adjusting tha instant center still stands undisputed.
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Old 01-14-2004, 11:21 AM
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I guess I don't understand where the problems with braking and skipping come into play on a street car. We are talking about street cars here. I have never had a problem with either one of those issues on any of my leaf spring equipped cars or trucks. My pickup handles like a slot car and it has stock leaves with NO traction aids at all... From a pure racing aspect with restricted suspension travels and, when enough power is applied (or available), these issues do come into play and there are many ways to control the transfer of power to the rear wheels as we all know.
All I am pointing out is these bars will work great for a mild motored street application and will work better then most of the "Race" bred rear suspensions where ride quality and maintenance are "moot points".
And, if you want adjustability for IC, go back and look at the bars and brackets in my first post. You will see some additional attachment holes that are designed to make the suspension fully adjustable. The front of the spring, along with all attachments for the bars, are adjustable. The amount of traction control is adjustable also by loosening or tightening the lower bar to change the amount of pressure the spring sees from the top pivot plate bar. This is adjustable from side to side and will act much like the Airlift airbags that are used to apply preload to the passenger side suspension. These bars will work fine.
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Old 01-14-2004, 03:44 PM
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dont get me wrong, the caltech bars are supperior to most, if not all other bolt on traction devices. the beauty is that they can be fitted to any leaf spring setup without worrying about making new attachment points like shelby over-rider or later under-rider traction bars, ladderbars, 4 link, or IRS retrofit. BUT they do not move the instant center, or controll the rear end laterally. i believe that the setup fat50 is suggesting would be as good as caltecs in contolling wheelhop, in addition to adressing the aforementioned points. and i think that he should go for it. it will be a very cool setup, and afford him the right to say that he designed and engineered it himself... thats what hotrodding is about in my wiew, which is why i was trying to encurage him to go ahead, it had nothing to do with your rides handling astroracer
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Old 01-15-2004, 11:29 AM
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Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to give the first design a shot just because i have never seen anything like this used (hell, there maybe a reason why this hasnt been used yet), If it doesn't work, i'm not out anything but time (have all the materials to try it). and if it doesnt work like i thought it would, caltracs here i come!!



Chris
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Old 01-15-2004, 04:20 PM
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what you are making is essentially a wishbone setup, they can be ordered from competition engineering link but i think your setup is infinitely cooler. let us know how it works out, how about posting pictures??
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Old 01-21-2004, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by fat50
Thats some mighty fine UG'ing there Astro

Thanks for the link, time to to start detailing.......



Chris
Chris, I'm curious as to what CAD software you're using. I can appreciate the effort it took to provide that picture. I'm retired now, but used SolidWorks on my last job. Have also used ComputerVision and early, very crude versions of AutoCad. I'm guessing you used a recent version of AutoCad, but it could have been SolidWorks or even ProEngineer. Which?
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