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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2006, 07:32 AM
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Gotta get me one

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Old 10-27-2006, 07:52 AM
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Some bad information has been given in this thread.

One person mentioned that you can put bondo products directly to epoxy if you do it in the recoat window.

Bondo ONLY works by mechanical adhesion (sanding scratches making a rough surface). If you put it directly to unsanded epoxy you wont be happy when it peels off later. Only other compatible paints can be applied to a previous paint within the recoat window. The paint will then chemically bond to the first coat.

As for peeling paint and metal prep. If you use metal prep properly, both Ospho and Pickel X, you will get stronger adhesion. I have found in talking to people that they tend to not follow directions. Failure to read and understand what you are working with tends to lead to failures of the product.

Products such as above will chemically etch the surface creating lots of surface area for the paint to flow into and latch onto when it cures.

For best quality work read and follow the directions. If someone tells you a 'better' way to use a product then you had best research the effects of their advice before using it. There is a lot of bad advice given with the best intentions.
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Old 10-28-2006, 12:41 AM
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Check your technical data sheets (TDS) on the epoxy.. It is also a fact that I myself got railroaded just a few weeks ago trying to support your side of this argument. It turns out, that no it does not have to be sanded, and yes they do have a magnificent "chemical" adhesion! Now, with that said, I also sand the epoxy. A week is not a long enough window to single-handedly wipe and sand a complete car, as I regularly do. And, I like to use the epoxy like a guide coat to help with metal finishing. So I do sand it with 80 Grit. But, No you do not have to.
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Old 10-28-2006, 07:30 AM
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"There is a lot of bad advice given with the best intentions."

I can't argue with that statement! That post is a prime example. On uncured epoxy, fillers are "compatable" products to apply and achieve a chemical bond. You might want to do a test and find out for yourself. Make sure you wait to test the adheasion until the epoxy has fully cured. If it falls off, it was a problem with the mixture or the application, not that it isn't compatable for a chemical bond.

If you are applying epoxy, prep the surface according to that epoxy manufacturer's recommendations. Simple as that. If you want to use Ospho or Picklex, go for it. If the paint starts to peel, don't say I didn't warn you.

I only try to provide the information, along with others here, to get the best results, with the least chance of failure. This is from my experience. Although some of the products and proceedures are new to me, the problems people have are not. Since I have only been doing body work off and on since the late 60's, ther are some here with more experienced than me. I also come here to learn from others.

Aaron
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Old 10-29-2006, 06:30 AM
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datasheets write to wipe the excess picklex after 1minute. In pitts that's not possible. What I am doing is "sand" all the picklexed area with a scotch-brite (the stiff one wife is using for the saucepan) and then vac the white dust with the vacuum cleaner. Is that ok?
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Old 10-29-2006, 07:06 AM
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Ok guys prove to me that bondo chemically bonds with paint:

How to Use Bondo

The above link prove just the opposite and if I dig deeper I can find more technical documentation proving there is not chemical bonding. This topic came up on autobodystore.com a while ago (year or two) and technical documentation was brought out expaining the reasons why and the above link is just something I happened to save. Paints used a totally different type of chemical reaction to work than the polyester fillers. They are completly different animals and in fact you only want to put fillers over cured with no more solvents comming out paint.

As far as using ospho or pickelx I suggest you look at the documention for your epoxy primers. They are fairly clear that you should use a metal prep step. They will recommend that you use their products so in the case of PPG and Dupont you do a two step process and have to wash it off. Interestingly there are a number of body shops using pickelx for all their jobs and they do not have a problem with the paint peeling off.

So show me technical documentation proving me wrong. A friend of a friend is not good enough, give me stuff back by science.

I stand by my statements and I think you will find if you read more on the subjects you will find out why I can stand by my statements.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2006, 08:13 AM
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Well, since you read one article that says one thing, you tend to believe it, That's fine with me, you can stay "Lost in NJ". I know what will work, and have tested it myself to verify. I have also talked to some people that have been to some BMW training classes. They verified that they were told that BMW requires epoxy primer before filler to maintian the corrosion protection. On that, I have not been to the classes myself, just passing along what I was told.

You can do it however you want. It don't matter to me as far as that goes. Just don't say that your way is the only right way, because you are wrong on that one.

Aaron

BTW... Direct from the Tech Sheet for Southern Polyurethanes Epoxy.

Body Fillers:

On any restoration it is always best to apply the body filler over the epoxy rather than

bare metal for best adhesion and corrosion protection. If one coat of epoxy is used then

the body filler can be applied in 60 minutes. When applying two coats of epoxy, wait over night before applying the body filler. The epoxy does not need to be sanded before applying the body filler.
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Old 10-29-2006, 08:45 AM
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Maybe a dumb question, but are there any , obviously single, part rattle can epoxy primers or other primers recommended?. I have the same issues, and use pickle-x or naval jelly which stops flash rusting in a garage with a dehumidifier, but do get some flash rust post welding.
thanks
david
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Old 10-29-2006, 09:44 AM
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bare metal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost in NJ
Get some Pickelx 20 and put it on.

The stuff is a bit pricey, but if you need to do significant metal work you will get the protection and other benefits you need. It also keeps you from having to take off the protective prime.
I talked to the owner of pilex corp. on the phone and he is very nice, he sent me a quart for free and it works great, it also makes mig welding better and is the best product for use in powder coating.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2006, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra06
Maybe a dumb question, but are there any , obviously single, part rattle can epoxy primers or other primers recommended?. I have the same issues, and use pickle-x or naval jelly which stops flash rusting in a garage with a dehumidifier, but do get some flash rust post welding.
thanks
david

No "1K"(un-activated/1 part) sealer/primer will ever perform as well as a 2K(activated/2 part) sealer/primer. Yes, there are some 1K/spraybomb/"epoxy primes out there, but I would not advise you to use them. Epoxy-primer is not that expensive, or difficult to use. You are not really going to make any real gain from using a spray-can. Yah, you may think it'll save you time, but trust my experience, It'll probably cost you more time in the long run to take some of those little short-cuts. And as shown on other threads in this forum, there are several paint guns on the market that are cheap enough to justify (assuming you don't have one). And face it surely anyone doing home restoration, hot rodding, bodywork, etc. has a usable compressor...

.. my point is, just buy some epoxy, mix it up, spray it on, and clean the gun(thoroughly). Then you can count on what you've done. Remember, that sealer/primer you're putting on is the foundation of your paint job.

Good Luck! No matter how you decide to do it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-29-2006, 12:09 PM
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Like CMC stated, the primer is the foundation, don't cut corners, or you'll wish later that you hadn't. You wouldn't try to build a garage on a gravel foundation, maybe a house, but not a garage. Don't do paint on a substandard foundation.

Aaron
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Old 10-29-2006, 02:11 PM
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Not really trying to cut corners, just looking for a quick step. Plenty of spray guns and air. It takes me a good 1-2 years to to a full metal restore on the cars I do and I keep going back to fit gaps and do additional metal work. The pickle-x works well for me, and I was just thinking of it wouldn't be a bad idea to put some type of primer down then sand off and lay down a good epoxy.
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David
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2006, 10:49 AM
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I always use

phosphoris acid mixed with water 50/50 and scotch-brite it on with a scrubbing motion if bare metal will be left unprotected.I learned this from the best(RANDY FERGUSON) and it works i left bare metal fenders and doors in this metal prep concotion for a year in nj and when i epoxy primed with SPI black epoxy primer there was NO RUST on them.WARNING!!! You must RINSE OFF the white powder type residue with either lac thinner or wax & grease remover.I know what works for me. Do it anyway you want.MIKE IN NJ
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-30-2006, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenseth17
been a way to long is talking about a preval sprayer. Harbor frieght sells them cheap, under $5 I believe. Can't see them listed on their website though. It should work, but of course wont lay it as nice as a gun. They also have some other thing there where you can remove the top and recharge the can to spray. Never tried it, cause I just fire up the compressor and get out the touchup gun if I am doing a small spot.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=1102
Harbor Freight has them for $4.99 and the gas refills are $3.99 as of this morning. The Preval claim is that it will spray 16 ounces of thinned material. I picked up one to buy, then set it down to look a something else and forgot it - d*** it another senior moment !!

Also - I agree with Kenseth 17 - fire up the compressor and shoot some primer - I think it's easier and cheaper. But it's a handy gadget to have, JIC.

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Old 10-30-2006, 07:55 PM
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I too live in Central Florida. I had two fenders on my 47 Dodge Coupe blasted to bare metal due to a lot of surface rust. I used ospho on it and they have been sitting in my garage for almost three month without primer. I did not prime them because I was welding up the molding holes and didn't want to have to sand of primer. They have not rusted at all. I also checked with the manufacture of the epoxy primer I intend to use and they said ospho will actually help adhesion. I plan on sanding before I prime. Although I have not had any rust problems I would not recomend leaving bare metal if you don't need to.
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