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Are Lifters supposed to look like that?

9K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  smikeb 
#1 ·
Hi, so I have a '68 327 SBC, new to me 2 years ago, I know nothing about the history. I've been told its got a high lift cam from how it idles. Since I've owned it has smoked out one tail pipe. Determined that cylinder 4 was the culprit because of a fouled plug and headers in that cylinder only. Last winter I replaced the valve stem seals on 4 but still seems to smoke, I also noticed the rocker stud on the intake was stripped. Just today I replaced the rocker stud and went to adjust the valve lash. I had a hard time finding TDC on 4 because the valve was not moving. Removed the rocker again and confirmed that thru a full 360 degrees of crank rotation the intake pushrod on 4 did not move. So ripped off the distributor and intake and pulled out the lifter. It was quite concave on the bottom surface. So I removed the exhaust lifter too and it was very flat. Tried to peer down the oil port to see the cam but could not make out very much.

See the attached pics. I'm assuming both lifters are supposed to be flat? And these are hydraulic lifters right? Based on this pic, what are my options? Can I just replace this lifter? Should I investigate more? Is my cam likely damaged? Should I check the other lifters?

I would really rather not remove the heads, as I'm in way over my head already. No pun intended. Thanks in advance for any and all advice.

Should I put this engine up for sale and get a new 350 from Jegs for $1500??

Cheers
Mike B
 

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#2 ·
you will need to replace cam and lifters, and all the metal that has been worn off is in your oil passages and oil pump causing damage ! I would suggest a tear down and good inspection and maybe you can get by with a mild rebuild make sure you pull the galley plugs and flush out your oil galleys including crank passages and do not take a chance on the oil pump!

Jester (Chris)
 
#3 ·
Just what Jester said ^^^^
Cam and lifters are now junk, cam lobe will be worn just as bad as that lifter is, if not worse, and all that worn metal is everywhere else inside the engine. It will have to be torn down and inspected, might be a simple clean out and re-bearing, re-ring, and new cam and lifters, or it could mean some machining will be necessary and other parts replaced.
Oil pump will also have to be replaced.

Sorry for your luck, but this is a common thing with flat tappet cams and either the incorrect oil or incorrect camshaft break-in procedure. modern motor oils cannot be safely used in older flat tappet cam engines without adding a ZDDP additive, or use of an racing oil that already has a high zinc content.
 
#4 ·
while a tear down is highly recommended,
i have used junkyard engines with flat cams such as yours.

if you decide to just replace the cam, you may beable to get some service
out of that engine until all of that metal will eat your rod bearings.

an oil change will not get it all out.

several years ago, the EPA decided to screw us that run flat tappet cams and take the zinc out of oils on the shelf.

this destroys flat tappet cams.

like eric said, you gotta use ZDDP which is a zinc additive.

or you can run race oils like Kendall or schafers 8-10 bucks a quart.

kind of hard to beat create deals. 1500 bucks is pretty cheap.
 
#5 ·
Like has already been said,cam/lifters are toast.Metal is floating throughout the engine now.As for crate motors,that $1500 motor from Jeg's is not a good option if you are wanting performance.It is the older 2 pc rear seal,flat tappet cam,low compression smog motor.For another $500 youcan get a new L31 Vortec with roller cam/lifters & very good heads.
 
#6 ·
Wow these are some of the best destroyed lifters I ever seen. Your cam is shot, the lobes will something like the lifters; that is wasted!

Flat tappet lifters aren't actually flat they are slightly convex. That shape along with a slight angle grind on the cam lobes causes the lifter to rotate in its bore so the sliding motion at the interface is reduced to a turning motion.

If you have the money for a crate motor that might not be a bad idea, all the ground up metal from the lobes and lifters went somewhere through the engine probably not doing a lot of goodness as it went, the oil filter doesn't get everything.

If you replace the cam it's a full up replacement of cam, lifters, and timing set 9gears and chain), not a bad idea to include push rods and rockers. Push rod ends wear into their mate with the lifter and rocker, so new lifters really should have new push rods and the top end of the push rod has the same wear in with the rocker so a new rocker ain't a bad idea beats having a failure that puts the push rod through the rocker. This is probably an older engine that uses guided push rods so they have to be the hardened type.

Bogie
 
#7 ·
I'm just throwing some money in the Annie.

I good quality cam and lifter kit will live just fine with shelf oils. Proper treatment of the cam and lifter plus the addition of the EDM holes and proper spring for the cam will eliminate the failures common to FT cams.

Rollers are still the best way to go except for the cost is crazy high these days with the demand going up.
 
#8 ·
Cam replacement then....

So if I'm going to do a cam here is my proposed shopping list:

Cam
lifters
push rods
rockers
oil pump
timing sprockets and chain
intake, timing cover, oil pan and header gaskets.
assembly lube
zddp additive
oil and filter

Anything else?

Anyone recommend a good how to video?

Cheers and thanks for all the replies and advice.
Mike
 
#10 ·
So if I'm going to do a cam here is my proposed shopping list:

Cam
lifters
push rods
rockers
oil pump
timing sprockets and chain
intake, timing cover, oil pan and header gaskets.
assembly lube
zddp additive
oil and filter

Anything else?

Anyone recommend a good how to video?

Cheers and thanks for all the replies and advice.
Mike
if youre going to do a cam all you need is a cam and lifter set, timing chain and gaskets.

but with that shopping list, i would include a create long block too.
IF you do just a cam, it could last anywhere from a week to forever...
i have destroyed cams before. and have just done a cam swap,
the 455 i did lasted until the sale of the car..lol
the 400 i did spun a rod bearing
the 389, had other issues... had me a rod that wanted to play outside of the box.
so, with a almost 33% success rate. you be the judge.

a cam, timing chain, and gaskets will run you about 200 ish with oils and additives.
but do not depend on this engine to get your child back and fourth to school.

as posted, make sure your valve stems are in good shape.


bottom line, if youre bored and you just wanna mess around on a budget
go ahead and do a cam swap, eventually you will find out how luck plays in your life, or not lol

if this is your daily driver, spend the 1500 bucks
 
#9 ·
GASKETS LOL Main and rod bearings and rings ! That metal will have gotten behind the rings in the ring lands causing damage! AND With no ZDDP since you bought the engine 2 years ago I will guess your valve tips are mushrooming , and showing pits maybe even flaking metal ??? I can't see in the pic its too small ! But a good valve job is needed if my guess is right?

Jester (Chris)
 
#11 ·
Crate Engine?

OK, my confidence is shrinking with every post. 33% is probably optimistic as this is my first time even taking of the intake manifold in any engine. Yes this is a fun project car. Its a '77 911 with a SBC conversion kit. My wife drives it on sunny days. Its been sunny lately so she's *****ing about her car not being ready. Time is more scarce than money, so I think I'm going to vote for a new crate motor.

A quick search came up with this: 350/290 from GM Performance. I need something that will bolt in to the same place and take the same peripherals as my '68 327 block. Chevrolet Performance 350ci/290HP Engine & Package - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

Any suggestions on something better? Budget around $2500. Any chance I could find something with roller cams for that price?

Cheers
Mike
 
#16 ·
My wife drives it on sunny days. Its been sunny lately so she's *****ing about her car not being ready.
while i agree that building an engine is the best way to learn.
your words that are in the quote above is screaming for a crate engine.

something that can be purchased quick and done quick-ish to keep the woman happy.
in my house, if mama isnt happy, noones happy.

perhaps your local machine shop has an engine that someone defaulted on???
happens alot, i purchased my last LT1 for 1k, completely rebuilt because the previous owner defaulted on him.
 
#13 ·
Want you want is this one. Bolt all your stock parts on it, break it in, fine tune the carb and timing and drive the wheels off it.
Chevrolet Performance 10067353, GM Goodwrench 350ci Engine & Packages | Chevrolet Performance

Just remember that 1500 quickly becomes 2000 in canuck bucks. Plus shipping across the border, broker fees, taxes and some gaskets and oil and you're right up there at 2500 canuck bucks.
Your wife needs a motor that starts, idles and drives the same all day every day. Anything more than the one in the link and you'll be tinkering with it until the divorce.
And if you go crate, and need help swapping it, just give us a shout and I'll come help educate you! Me and you do the swap. The wives will go shopping!!
 
#14 ·
Look up ProPower on your side of the border. I would bet he can get you where you need to be under the price tag you stated in the time frame you need it. Tell him Lizard sent ya.


I don't like crates because crates are just low volume mass production engines. I'd prefer a real builder who can remove some of those production tolerances. You also have more one on one with the rebuild process and some personal accountability with you and your projects success.
 
#15 ·
Take the 327 apart and see what it needs. I don't think the transaxle in that car will hold much torque. A 327" was probably chosen for the short stroke and minimal torque. You put a 350 in there it may be to much torque for the drive line.

If all looks good you can go back with a mild hyd roller package and be back in business. Should be able to do it for around $2500.
 
#17 ·
Rebuild vs Crate?

Lizard thanks, i went to see Dave at Propower Engines this afternoon. He is only about a mile from my house. He said he could rebuild my 327 within the budget. He also said that the GM crate motors for that price are junk.

So, is that the general consensus? For a budget of around $2000 USD, ($2500) Canadian, would you rebuild an old 327 or buy a new 350? Again, its a pleasure only car, driven on the street on sunny days.

About the torque question, there are guys that convert these old 911's with the same transmission as mine, using Aluminum LS series motors getting upwards of 500HP. The tranny was obviously overdesigned. Silly Germans.

Thanks again.
M
 
#18 ·
. Dave is right, you don't want a $1500 - 1900 350" 195 HP, 260 HP, or 290 HP engine in a Porsche 9/11... they're not junk, they're good utilitarian engines that will start fine, run fine, last a long time, get crappy 13 MPG at best, feel sluggish, and puke out by 4200 RPMs powerwise...


. Have Dave repair the 327" to have the same redline as shown on the Porsche's tach and you will get much more power, twice the MPG, and be much much happier with it...
.
 
#19 ·
Have your local rebuilder do the job to your existing motor or find another roller Vortec 350 sbc and do that one...costs the same and you will end up with better heads, more cubes and identical fitment.

Here you go, might even be able to just swap it in and drive for now.

Chevy 350 tbi engine | engine, engine parts | Williams Lake | Kijiji
 
#24 ·
Here you go, might even be able to just swap it in and drive for now.

Chevy 350 tbi engine | engine, engine parts | Williams Lake | Kijiji

. LOL! That looks like another TBI swirl port head engine that will puke out by 4200 RPMs... I wouldn't be caught dead in a Porsche with an engine that dies by 4200 RPMs... even if it is a Chevy engine... of course, it might read like 5250 RPMs on a Porsche tach...


. BTW, I think there are tach correctors available that will make the RPMs of a Chevy V8 read correctly on a Porsche 6-banger tach... if haven't done that already...
 
#21 ·
Don't just buy a motor without checking this one. The motor needs to come out no matter what, so get it pulled and get the pan off and check the bearings&crank. If the crank is fine, then this will be cheaper and easy if you have a trustworthy machine shop ready to help you out. If the crank is bad due to metal contamination from the cam failure, then I'd be with you in buying the crate motor.

As others have mentioned - all crate motors aren't created equally.

Good luck - Jim
 
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