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Old 02-07-2008, 06:41 PM
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Lincoln mark rear brake adjusting

I put a late 70s lincoln mark disc brake 9" rear in a coupe. The brakes and etc. are new. I have brakes,but not like it should be. Before installing the new pads I had to ratchet the piston back into the caliper. and I was wondering, how to, or is there a way to adjust or ratchet the rear brakes after installing them. We have checked several times and there is no air in the lines. Also it has a new The master cylinder is a new 1 1/8" piston unit. Anyone have any ideas. Seams like it should be a adjustment.
Thanks !
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Old 02-08-2008, 09:13 AM
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I am assuming that these are factory disc brakes not an aftermarket set-up. the piston on the caliper will have 2 drilled holes on the face towards the brake pad, you can buy or fabricate a wrench to fit the holes.(I picked up a universal wrench at Advanced Auto Parts made by Ampro, and it fits a variety of factory calipers, was cheap, and fits on a 3/8 drive reached!) Then you want to turn the caliper puck outward with your wrench in increments while test fitting it over the disc, it should not be loose, but not really "drag" this will improve your brakes dramatically! the only problem with the stock ford rear disc brake operation is that you need to utilize the parking brake at regular intervals to keep this puck adjusted! you will have to do the initial adjustment with a wrench, as the parking brake cannot make such a large adjustment. but it can maintain proper adjustment from that point on!good luck!
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Old 02-08-2008, 11:08 AM
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That is cool thanks a lot for the info and quick reply. You asked about the system. Well the rear is a lincoln,with new parts. And the front I went with a new wildwood disc brake setup. Because I am running the original type dropped front straight axle. But everything in the system is new. I am not running a proportioning valve. I did not think I needed it.
THANKS AGAIN ! I will get back with you after I try it,to let you know how things worked out.
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Old 02-09-2008, 03:51 AM
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another question, where is your master cylinder located? If it's under the floor on the frame rail, you still need 2# residual pressure valves to keep the fluid from draining out of the calipers! I would recommend the adjustable proportioning valve also, as the stock ford binders will not be as effective as the wildwood fronts, and even if your brakes function fine normally, an emergency braking stop may produce deadly braking bias! It's an easy install, and is easily adjusted by making low speed trial stops in sand or gravel, and adjusting until one system-front or back does not lock up before the other! $65.00 and some time is well worth the price of staying out of the hospital!!
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Old 02-09-2008, 09:33 PM
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Ok ! I got the tool, like you said and adjusted the rear caliper pistons out,for a sung fit.n Also when I did the brake lines,master cylinder and etc. I did install residual valves on both lines. And the master cylinder is located in the frame like under the floor and drivers feet. with the pedal coming through the floor like a early ford setup. I do not have pictures of the bottom of the car but I can get some. I have several old vehicles. And this one I am trying to get better brakes on is in the hotrodders gallery. Thanks for keeping it in your thoughts,and replying.
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Old 02-09-2008, 11:37 PM
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I have a few questions..
Is the 1 1/8" master cylinder boosted?
What under floor pedal are you using? is it the stock VW pedal?
Is the pedal hard, soft or feel good?
Is the pedal high or low?
What is your pedal ratio?
When you drive the car, can you get the brakes to lock up at all? If you do, which end locks up first?
Are you using the Wilwood Dynalite 4 piston calipers with the 1.75" pistons? 11" front rotors?

Are you using the stock 75-79 Lincoln brakes in the rear? IIRC those are 11 3/8" rotors and the calipers have a big single piston.

A common problem with the lincoln brakes is that they have too large of a piston (close to 3" IIRC),to be used with the smaller front calipers that seem to be found on most street rods.

I know guys who actually used to sleeve those big lincoln calipers and install pinto front caliper pistons in them.

I'm guessing that with what you currently have, you wind up with almost 7 square inches of piston area on 1 side in the back, with some big pads, and about 5 square inches on 1 side in the front with some pads about 1/2 the size of the rears....The rotors in back are bigger than the ones you have front and I think you have the potential for some serious rear brake bias. I see your car is a V8 powered V Dub

I'll bet that car is really light in the rear. Not the kind of car you want alot of rear brakes on.


A proportioning valve will only do so much good, as it limits the rate of rise in pressure after a certain point, (it's really a delay valve, not a true pressure reduction)

If you are running an un boosted 1 1/8 master cylinder, things are really going to be weird, because you will never build enough pressure to get the fronts to do any work. Those Wilwood caliper NEED a bunch of pressure to work, typically you need a 7/8 master cylinder for an unboosted setup. (I've never gotten any of those Wilwood front setups to work right...but I have heard that some folks have, so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt)



Later, mikey
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Old 02-10-2008, 12:38 PM
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I just measured a piston on one of those Lincoln calipers...2.58"

Makes a caliper with 5.22 square inches of piston area, which is still too big.

Many systems run rear piston areas of about 60% of the fronts with slightly smaller rotors on the rear.

Later, mikey
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Old 02-11-2008, 03:53 PM
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ANSWERS :

1. The rear- Its a 9" Lincoln Locker,its the early model mark with like
11 3/8 rotors with new original style Lincoln calipers and
pads.
2. The front Is a 31-32 dropped straight axle,with 11" rotors and
wilwood 4 piston calipers.
3. The master cylinder- Its a dual 1 1/8" piston master cylinder. with
wilwood 10 lb. residual valves on each line. It does not
have a proportioning valve or brake booster. I maybe
wrong. But I did not think I needed one since its a light
car. Beside trying to fit a booster in.
4. The brake pedal - Its home made similar to a early model ford that
was under the floor. Its measurements are: From the
Pvt point center to the center of the brake pedal pad is
8 1/2 ". From the Pvt point to where the piston arm
connects is 4". I don't know the ratio. I checked the total
travel of the rod,with the brakes released to applied fully
and its 1" into the master cylinder. Pushing the petal pad
from released to applied is 2". At 2'' its solid. and feels good
I think. I have not gotten the car over like 25, just running
around the neighborhood. Its will stop. But not like it should
at 25. And it will not lockup front or rear. It would be
dangerous at higher speeds I think. Like if some idiot pulled
out in front of it. And you had to made a quick stop.
5. Weight - I am not sure what the car weights totally,or front & rear.
I am thinking the rear might weight the same as a original
VW. Because the original had a engine and trans/rear in the
rear. And mine got the 9" rear,a aluminum 25 gal. fuel cell
and a aluminum radiator with fan. And I know the front
will weight more because of the motor.

Also the chassis is a little heavier, the vws only had floor
pans,not much of a frame. This one got a 2"X3" tube frame.
Soon to have a roll cage.

Do you think the problem is no booster ? I have seen a lot
of race cars that run with no booster. You also I think
mention a smaller master cylinder. I thought the bigger
is better. I have even seen some run dual howe or
wilwood master cylinders in there race cars no boost.

Well thanks for any advice or ideas that you guys may offer.
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Old 02-12-2008, 08:34 AM
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With an 8.5" pedal arm length and and a pivot to piston rod length of 4" you have a pedal ratio of 2.13:1

For manual brakes you need at least 5 or 6 to 1.

If you look at your pedal ratio you will also find that if the pedal pad moves 2.13" , the piston in the master cylinder will move 1".

Most master cylinders will allow 1.1" of stroke...total.

I'd bet that the pedal feels good because it is hitting the bottom of the MC. Or getting damn close to it.

I'm wondering if you are building any line pressure at all.

The master cylinder should be generating at least 600psi to the lines at about 5/8 to 3/4" of its stroke. That 1 1/8" MC you have has more than enough volume to run your brakes with even less stroke than that. Using up most of the available stroke tells me that you need to do some checking of your system for air, or excessive pad retraction, either from misaligned caliper brackets or retraction from sticky seals...With 10 PSI RPV's you should have no problem with sticky seals...In fact, I'll bet the fronts are dragging. The Wilwoods have very little pad retraction.

With the numbers you give, your 2.13 ratio pedal will generate roughly 400 psi with 200 pounds of foot pressure on the pedal. That is alot of pedal pressure. You need to size your system so that you generate 800-1000 psi with 70-80 pounds of pedal pressure. You could go to a much smaller MC, but then you wont have the volume to run those lincoln brakes. If you can't get your brakes to lock up and stop well with 1200 psi you need to do some caliper or rotor changes.


Plumb a gauge into your system. 0-2500 psi is a good one. I made one out of a 10.00 gauge I bought at the welding supply and some plumbing fittings. See what kind of system pressure you are making, you only need to plumb 1 line, as the pressures are equal throughout the system. You can really see what changes have any effect if you use a gauge to help diagnose your system.


Later, mikey
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:07 AM
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brakes

The best setup for 4 wheel disc brakes is 2 master cylinders with the adjustment bar like a 427 cobra. Speedway and other companies now make them for streetrods.. they take up more room and will set you back 3 to 400 bucks. I did a lot of work on the 427 that set the roadrace track record at MIS. bruce used to re adjust everytime he changed tires or air pressure but it was fast and stopped great.......Retired Ford engineer
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:54 AM
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I plan on buying a gauge today so I can check the pressure. Do you think a brake booster will help. I am trying to see if I can fit one in. There is a new one on ebay # 350023245150. its the pedal and all. They say its a 7" dual booster and master cylinder as used on corvette's. Also they say its for all wheel disc brakes. But I am not sure if it will help any. I ask them to email me back with its measurements so I can check if it will fit. I know it wont in the frame. But maybe I can fit it on my firewall. GEE so much fun !
THANKS !
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:47 AM
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If the pedal measurements you gave are accurate, then you are going to need to change that to be about 5 or 6 to 1 with a 7" power booster, possibly more. Only with a bigger booster are you going to get the pressures and volume that you need.


Have you thought about putting the master cylinder in the back of the car with a long rod from the pedal to the master cylinder and booster? This would allow you to put a bigger booster in, and you may be able to run your fabricated pedal, if you can change the pedal ratio at the master cylinder/ booster by using a bellcrank.

Another alternative is to use a hydroboost hydraulic booster to up your pressure to an adequate level.. The Lincoln that you got the rear end from probably had a hydroboost as stock equipment. You will need a small hydraulic pump to run it. A power steering pump will work.

There is also an electric booster...I've never used one or seen it work, only heard of it.
http://www.abspowerbrake.com/electrichppage.html

Because of the brake bias issues you will probably still have, a Tilton or Wilwood balance bar setup that Timothale mentioned might be a good way to go. They come with their own pedal, so that might fix a couple of problems. You need to see if you have space for one, as they take up as much width as a vacuum booster.

Speedway sells them, as do a bunch of the companies that sell brake parts to race car builders. Coleman racing has them, and I believe that Jegs and summit sells that stuff too.


Later, Mikey
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Old 02-13-2008, 05:11 PM
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Does the pedal go to the floor or does it just not stop well. Are you sure the bleeder valves are at the top mose point of the cylinder. if they are not you will never get all the air out. i have seen this several times.
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Old 02-13-2008, 06:51 PM
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T-bucket- Yes the bleeder valves are on top of the calipers,NOT on the bottom. LOL ! Also it will do a slow 20 mph stop. And will not lockup at all.
Like I told the guys earlier,from the brake off to pushing it on, I measures the length of travel on the master cylinder rod, and it almost goes in a inch. Which was mention by of of the guys,it might be hard because i am bottoming
out in the master cylinder. Thanks !
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