Am I hearig you say that contractors work 4 hours, bill for 8 and spend the rest of the time in the pub? If that was your eperience in the shop you worked at it would explain why you didn't get paid. I'll give you a chance to clarify before ripping into you. Come to think of it, if thats your opinion it would be a waste of time.

now thats how the shop i worked in worked, i was not allowed to touch the cars, we would work a customer car for a few hours a day, and the rest of the day we spent washin the owner's cars or working on his cars, and in a shop that knows their the "best" they will work on a car one customer's car a few hours a day, then work on another, they might work on 4 cars(per group say theirs 4 people in the group) in one 8 hour day

If the car only had 15 or so small dents and align and fix a new hood, how the heck did you get an insurance check for $4000.00?

Time to go to maaco

To do a 1st rate show worthy REFINISH, should START at 100hrs. That's no panel replacement, rust repair, or major dents. Any paint guy can take a Dynabrade DA and sand the car. But hand blocking to near perfect is an art form. Straight cars start with straight metal. However I've seen sheet metal that one would drool over, I mean just WANTING to put a finsh on it, and some licknob wannabe puts a wavy chopped up finish because he just can't surface correctly. Good surfacing means time. Time is money. A "paint job" is what you get at Maaco. And, surfacing MUST continue to the final coat before it's hit with the buffing wheel. All in all, 170hrs for a show quality car is not out of line.

Doing good buisness means doing "good buisness" as in informed customers, good communication, and a true meeting of the minds as to each other's expectations. Frankly, I never understood how some people can just leave their project and wonder what's happing with it vs paying regular visits to check progress, both financial and physical. If the shop owner doesn't welcome regular visits you need to thank him for his time and look elsewhere. OK I'm done...

Man i wish you could get a paint job for under 9,000 around here. Our 66 chevelle was media blasted, needed a 1/4 replaced and some body work, and the estimate came out to 18,000 dollars. This isnt a trailer queen paint job, driver quality. We got him way down to 13,000 with us doing some of the work.

Up untill about four years ago I never really kept track of how many hours it took to do these higher quality jobs. 170 hours is a drop in the bucket on some of the jobs I've done. It's downright scary to think of how many hours I've put into these projects. There is no way to estimate this kind of work and be accurate, a ballpark figure in hours for basic operations is doable but to estimate it from start to finish is impossible-either the customer or the shop would get burned in the end. All my restoration type work done now is billed at 40 hour incriments with a full explanation of what was done and documented with digital photos- this way the customer can review the progress and square up with me in stages. Nobody is cheated this way. There's more money in collision work where the job is bid and times can be beat but for restoration type work I bill by the hour worked. There needs to be good comunication between the shop and customer IMO.

Ironic that this is gonna be my first post --and it is a very controversial one indeed.

I think there are several things that people (customers & craftsmen alike) do not know to to judge -and that is their "time". It is like someone wrote about earlier, 10 minutes to stripe something. People will only believe what seems believable to them. Who took the time to order (go pick up) the tape, and the other materials from the shop. Who pulled the car into position, etc. etc. It is just like mowing the yard. To do the task, should one also factor in the time it takes to get the mower out, go purchase the gasoline, clean up the mower and put it away too as a part of the time it takes to 'mow the grass'?

I own a restoration shop and I tell my customers that all they are buying from me is our time. I also have an office girl that takes care of the clerical duties. I have 5 craftsmen that I "coach". I don't really have to tell them how to do their craft but I do spend 5-10 minutes an hour with each one giving direction and planning. This really adds to productivity for the shop for two reasons 1st; I can ask them what they are planning to do next so it allows them to think a little further down the road. This helps head-off any parts/materials delays because I can get them ordered hopefully before they need them. 2nd; ...this time allows me to see what problems are arising (which are increasing project completion times) so I can speak intelligently with the customer explaining the "malfunctions". It seems that the key to good customer relations is Education. Education means telling them why the bill is going to be more, telling how far along we are in the project, and educating them on what their "tab" is at any given moment during the process.

I say all of that to say this. Very few people know how long ANYTHING will take in life (that is why they are seemingly late everywhere they go!). Customers many times fail to factor in everything that is involved in the project. This includes clean-up, tool retrieval, tool repair, etc., etc. That is why an organized shop is usually a better value for the customer. For us, I have a high school kid that comes in every day and spends 2 1/2 hours vacuuming the floors, taking out the trash, and just general putting tools back up.

Factoring the "support staff" adds costs to the overhead that must be amortized over the price of the whole shop's productivity. I wonder if this is what has plagued the shop that Bullheimer used? If he must stop and clean the floors, put tools away, answer the phone, and do all of the hidden chores involved with repairing your car, should he be able to charge for those items too?

For me personally, I say 'Yes' because if the same and exact 'operation' from start to finish would have been completed by Bullheimer in his own garage, he would have had to clean up, secure materials, and do the same basic operation procedure as the man he hired to "proxy" for him. Remember, Bullheimer was buying that guy's time.

Tell me Brent,
If you charge say $40.00 an hour. Is that $40 an hour for one guy working on the car or if two guys are working on the car is it now $80 an hr.? Just curious.

In any shop it's per "man hours". If one guy surfaces the left side and another the right, both jobs are getting done. If it was "clock hours" any of us in the buisness would need food stamps to survive. 2 guys work 8 hrs, the shop bills for 16. What would you do different?

IMHO, anyone in the resto biz is behind the 8 ball right from the start. The true reality is that a hotrod or vintage vehicle is an adult version of their kid's Playstation2. You don't really NEED it. To me that's the start of what often times shows up as a lack of respect for the craft, and therefore, difficulty justifying the need for time...and time is money plain and simple.

interesting

geez what a thread. i dont normaly post here but this one hit's close to home. i've been a custom painter for over 35 years. it is the most unforgiving job there is. you can go from making a profit to losing you a** in a second. heres my way of looking at it.
if you dont check references ............your fault
if you dont get a written estimate signed.......... your fault
if you dont stay on top of the job.................your fault
if you dont authorise all work....................your fault

you cant drop off your car and come back 6 months latter to see what's up. i send weekly pics to my customers to keep them informed of what's being done. there are way more wannabe's in this feild than true craftsmen. sad but true. a straight 1 color paint job is a min 100 hrs at 65@hr. bodywork varies car to car. we usually get hosed trying to get a deal and we all know it. pay for what you get..get what you pay for. you have to have a relationship with the shop doing your work. comunicate , be a part of it. i get cars in here that have sat in another shop for years. i ask if they checked references. " oh yeah i've seen his work, he's got a killer rod " is NOT checking references. i give a list of contacts and recomend that they contact all of them. some of my customers are hrs away and cant come by very often , without the web site and update pics they would be left out in the cold. this way they can check in every week and see the progress or lack of . get to know your builder/painter first before you turn your " baby " over to them.

the porchdog

Thats a good point Porch, but there are some shop owners that really do nice work, but DO NOT want to be bothered by the customer. Sad , but true. I guess you need to "interview" your shop owner and discuss what YOU would like to see/do, and what HE wants you to see/do. I have a few shops around here that want you to drop off the car, and give them a check when you pick it up.
Then there are the guys that , in my opinion, are smart. The have a schedule worked up with "component" pricing. They still do T/M work. List shop supplies under hourly rate, and bill you X% on top of materials used. Hourly rate with ESTIMATED hours for each procedure.
They break it down like this

Metal Work
Materials $0000.00 x 25% OH/P
Labor ESTIMATED XXX hours @ $65.00
$X,XXX.XX

Sand/ Prep for Epoxy Prime
Materials $0000.00 x 25% OH/P
Labor ESTIMATED XXX hours @ $65.00
$X,XXX.XX

Build Prime/Block/ Prep for Paint
Materials $0000.00 x 25% OH/P
Labor ESTIMATED XXX hours @ $65.00
$X,XXX.XX

Paint/Color Sand/Buff
Materials $0000.00 x 25% OH/P
Labor ESTIMATED XXX hours @ $65.00
$X,XXX.XX


If one component is a large sum of money, they break the car down.

The handy part of this, is the shop isn't waiting to get paid, and the owner can "pull the plug" should he run out of money, or poor shop performance , or the car needing a TON more work than estimated. The estimate should state what condition the car is in. Even to the point of a sketch of the car with what work will be needed. When unexpected areas are encountered, the owner will have more than blind faith to go off from.

anyone who's been doing this for a while can walk into the parking lot and know right away what it's going to take. the only variable is metal work. i know how many hrs for paint, surface work is the same, . i break a job down like this.
paint 100 hrs@65.00 / custom art work 100.00 hr.
surface prep 40 hrs@48.00
bodywork @48 .00
my ourly rates include materials a "pretty good " car will take at least 40 hrs to get the bodywork right. most of whats left in the streetrod world will take 150 to 200 hrs. sorry but all thats left is the leavings. a glass car will take 40 100 hrs depending on who's body.
if you take a hot rod to a body shop chances are it will set untill the collision work is done.
bottom line. find a shop you can trust that only does custom work. then check as many references as possible.

Hey all, I just had my Chevelle completed. Last year I had the front end re-painted. (new hood and fender, long story!) This year I had one new quarter put on and a patch in the other side. I worked with the same guys who did the front end. I was very on top of the shop. I must say Shine was/is right. DO YOUR HOMEWORK!!!! I spent a good year checking out this shop (and others) before working with them. A few things I noticed:

Many shops have "demo" cars that they like to show off. Ignore them! Talk to owners!

Many shops will let you "drop by" to chat. Do it! and take a look around. If you can talk to the actual guys who will/would be doing the work.

Once your car/project is there, stop by often or request digital updates!!!! I was there every day the first time and then every other day the second.

Finally, many shops (in my area) need help paying attention to detail. Make sure they know the detail up front. If you want all the bolts painted too, let them know. Otherwise you get what they give. Also, if you want custom work done prepare to be there to guide/instruct.

I am not a body man. Heck, I don't even play one on TV, and, I definitely did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. I am just a dumb engineer. I do know two things from managing projects. 1) the Details are what kill you. 2) Keeping the puppies in the box is the hardest part!