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"a little over" turns into $4500 over for paint job

37K views 128 replies 60 participants last post by  shine 
#1 ·
so am i the only one that thinks if i give a paint shop an ins. check for $4000 and he says right away what i want will cost me more than that, and i say well try to keep it down cause money is tight and then he says he has to fix rocker panels and he says it wont be more than $400 and then he says he had to replace part of the rear quarter panel behind the back tires, and i acknowledge the stripes i want will be $700 extra and i know i have to pay for glass too, should i be in shock when he says, without any glass being in the car yet, that he has 170 hours in the car?? it had about 15 small dents from a pipe on the car and the new hood had to be aligned and a shipping dent removed as well. at $45 an hour, yeah he's cheap on that, it still comes out to like $8500. should i be feeling like i am getting alittle bit shafted? or should i feel good that he is the best guy in this part of the state and all his cars win trophies?
 
#3 ·
A little Over???????????/

I would be very upset no matter who it is to run that far over without contacting me first. To tell the truth about it that is aganist the Law. That's not right,....not at all. The insurance check plus what you were expecting to be added is what I would pay and only that. Without your express consent on a repair order you cannot be overcharged that much without you being notified and I would say any judge in America feels the same way.
The 70 Vette we did a ground up restoration on EACH phase had to be put in writing and given to the customer before we could spend any of HIS money. If parts prices changed on anything other than what we quoted, we had to eat the difference. But the customer knew everyday what I was doing. The main reason we do that is to keep someone from taking us to court for an unauthorized repair.
No matter how great your work is you must tell the customer before extra work is done that exceeds $200 over the estimate.
 
#5 ·
Bullheimer,
If you brought your car to the best guy you knew, and he has a good reputation; He will stand behind his work. I spent 6500 on my paint, I could have had it done for 3500, but I knew the guy I dealt with would stand behind his work, so, I went for the 6500 job. My buddy, on the other hand, went for a 3500 job on his 41 Willys and has been crying about it from day one. Now he is legally pursuing getting money back, so, I guess you get what you pay for.
IMO
AngliaBob
 
#7 ·
If you know the guy's work, then you knew you were trusting him to decide how much you would spend, right?

Around here I see more with boats than cars... there's one guy who does great work, but I won't let him touch my boat because HE DECIDES how much is enough, how long it's going to take, etc. I do most of my own but when I do call somebody I want a plus or minus 10% estimat on the price and within a week or two of when the job will be done.

Good fences make good neighbors.

I prefer to deal with craftsmen rather than artists; craftsmen understand that the work and money is your property. Artists...
 
#8 ·
Well.... I must say that this has been an entertaining post to read. Punctuation may have made it easier. I read it 2 times, and still am not sure exactly what it says, except that it appears that you feel like you were over charged.

If I am dealing with a couple of dollars, we will make a verbal agreement. If we are talking a couple of hundred, it will be in writing.

Laws in most states differ, but most have something to protect the consumers. I would check on legal recourse.
 
#12 ·
I'm sorry to say but I too think you paid a bit much.

But remember. I live in Ohio were things go a bit loose on the environmental laws. And I also do all my own work.

I don't think though he should have had more than 20 to 25 hours in that body. Even with replacing those parts. I've replaced a whole floor, both inner and outer rockers and one rear quarter on a car in less than 30 hours.

Sorry but I would really look into this one.

Maybe someone who does this professionally can come up with a better time estimate than me.
 
#13 ·
You guys don't keep an honest record of the time you spend on your car I'll tell you that!

30 hours to replace a floor, both inner and outer rockers AND a quarter? Man, if you are not a pro you are missing out on a great living. You would me making six figures at a commission shop!

170 hours is very realistic on a complete with panel changes, a color change and body repair.

That being said the guy was WAY out of line for not letting you know how it was going. Either he is a total thief, a moron, or YOU gave him the wrong impression.
 
#14 ·
i have to agree with martinsr. i am not surprised by the time he spent but he should have let you know if as soon as the price changed from the original estimate. i dont think i've done a car to date that i put less time in than that, atleast to get a nice flawless finish. if it was done right and when you look down the side of the car there isn't the slightest wave or ripple anywhere then i think the guy is being very honest on the time part of it. really there are many different levels of flawless, it just depends on how deep you want to get. someone could spend 1000 hours on it if thats the kind of paintjob you wanted. i have a 61 corvette here that i will have somewhere around 450 hours in when done but again if the guy does show car type paintwork he should have gone over all this stuff with you first to find out what exactly you wanted and what your budget is while also letting you know if anything changes down the road. he is wrong about that and i would be pissed, its just poor business. shafted?? well, maybe or maybe not but it really depends on the quality of the job and i dont think anyone can tell that by looking at pics on the internet, thats something that needs to be seen in person.
 
#15 ·
MrClean, you really hit it, "how deep do you want to get?" The year my brother and I showed his '22 Buick Roadster in the "Grand National Roadster show" (a very prestigious show on the west coast) the car that won best in his class of "altered street roadster" and took the coveted "Americas Most Beautiful Roadster" award had a $65,000 paint job! And that was "discounted" as it was rumored the painter (I forget the guys name "junior" comes to mind, he use to work for George Barris in the old days) spent 1750 hours on the paint alone!!!

However, just because someone spent the time doesn't mean they did the job that time would result in if you knew what the heck you were doing. As I have said many times, the home hobbyist with no experiance can do a heck of a show quality paint job just because of the fact that he has the time to do it.

My brother has a 55 Ford pickup that my dad "rodded" back in 1965. He recently had the body and paint done at a "friends" shop. I do NO side work what so ever nor do I have a place to do such a big job and so he sent it out. He had an appointment to do it where I work but was pushed back a little on the schedule and got impatient. And took it to this "friend" who said he would do it for about $8,500.00. Now, mind you, this was a "decent" 55 Ford truck cab and fenders. "Decent" means it will need every square inch worked as with all 50 year old metal, but no serious metal shaping and all patch panels were welded in. From the cab back was NEW, brand new OEM Ford fenders and a beautiful repro bed. One NOS running board, the other I had already done. So, with just the cab and front clip to do and paint the whole thing (the frame was already done, all in black) for the $8,500.00. Well, one thing led to another and it ended up being $20,000!!!! No change in work, nothing added, the truck was stripped to bare metal and in etch primer so he could see EXACTLY what he had to work with.
This &%#ing MORON, THIEF, put 300 hours in this truck. Now the real sad part, it is NO WHERE NEAR "show car" work. This is a "driver" and it wasn't even good enough for that! My STUPID brother paid him and took the truck. After complaining to him about the work he gave back $2,500.00 (I hope he doesn't die from enlargment of the heart). My brother still has to have the cab painted again being it is three different colors! The MORON didn't buy enough paint and bought another quart here and there and the truck ended up like a friggin patch work quilt!

The texture was SOOOOOOOOO rough it looked like gravel guard. In fact, using gravel guard at work seldom gives you the kind of texture this MORON ended up with. Hows this for a kicker, the &*#%@#^$ CHARGED MY BROTHER BY THE HOUR to buff the paint out just to make it presentable!! Any normal shops "out of the booth done" job would have been fine for my brother (well, maybe a little shoe shine) this MORON couldn't do that to save his life!

So, I now find myself doing bodywork over. Oh, by the way, a few of these panels were reshot because the guy left dents in them! We are talking DENTS not "waves" or less than show car flawless kinda stuff like my brother was picky. We are talking Quarter sized 1/8" deep dents. The guy did things like moulding off welds that couldn't even be seen when the truck was together yet left things like these dings, and a crack in the back of the hood, and dents on the dash board, and.............

If you didn't notice this subject kinda ticks me off. :boxing:

This guy is one of those guys who makes me hate the "every painter does things a little different" comment I often see. This MORON does cars that end up pretty nice, yet he knows NOTHING. He can eventually redo mistakes, repaint mistakes, cut and buff to a nice shine but that doesn't mean he is just doing it "different" than I would do. It means he is doing it WRONG and he just makes do. Ok, I think I will go have my cavities filled. No kidding, I am leaving right now to go to the dentist. I rather go there than think about that MORON anyway.
 
#16 · (Edited)
here is a pic of it as of saturday night about 7 pm after wet sanding and buffing: it's kinda like going into get a $30 ho but you get one that's $500. on the other hand, you had one hell of a great time and it was worth the money. my only bag is that i only get $4500 back on income tax and i had to pay my property tax with that. now i have to spend the whole thing and go delinquent another year. oh well, hey, i'm gonna drive this thing like i stole it!:thumbup: http://hotrodders.com/journal_photos/00001065/11023573782.jpg

i hope this works. i've never been able to post a pic before




there is this and a couple more in my journal. oh yeah, one other major thing. i found out he only has like 140 in it now. the rest of it he estimated would be from putting on the grill, bumpers, lights, installing door glass, painting the dash, all the weather stripping. so his time is not inflated. i am not getting robbed. now that i see this car i shoulda just SHUT THE HELL UP!:pimp: he had an engine guy spend three hours tuning it, adjusting valves. i am worried about the engine now because he said there is a slight vibration he cant get rid of or narrow down. maybe in the lower end. i did not have the crank turned. but that is another post.
 
#17 ·
wow!!! thats a shame. now he got shafted. you definately sound a little bitter about the subject, of course with good reason.

as far as the actual topic of this post, i would probably give the guy an earfull and a half for spending money that wan't his but take a good look at the car, if its a real nice job and your happy with it then honestly, price wise, i think your ok. if its not wetsanded and buffed and you have all kinds of flaws all over then i would really do some complaining and say you got taken.

martinsr. make sure they give you gas instead of novicane, its alot more fun!!!:thumbup:
 
#18 · (Edited)
it was wet sanded and buffed. time was 3 & 1/2 hours and two people for that. at 170 x $45 it's "only" $7600. the $8000 is because i have to buy all new glass for it at $600. i'm happy. dont get me wrong. esp. since i am turning him onto this site. i dont want him pee ohed, as i am full-on expecting this thing to get keyed the first time i park it unattended.
 
#20 ·
I have a hard time disagreeing on the price, after looking at the photos. He should have kept you posted on the money part of it though. Nice car, btw. I'd be proud. :D Dan
 
#22 · (Edited)
FIRST OFF 170 hours was just the labor!!! ugh. i just got his final bill: $9660 incl. parts. minus the 3800 i gave him i still have to pop for 6000. he is going to let me off without paying $700 in taxes. so it was like double what i thought i was gonna owe him. yeah, this guy is fantastic, this car could win shows, no doubt, all his other cars have. but i mean if i would have known, i just couldnt afford it. i will have to sell this so consider it for sale as of say,,, june 30th or mid summer. but instead of like 16K i am gonna have to get even more and without suspension upgrades and wheels and tires Good Luck! i gotta nother car i'm afraid to drive and have to park in the back 40. i still have to order black carpet and put in the console i got last spring. ins. paid for the back seats so all of them will be new. it really needs control arm bushings too and i am going to get a new harmonic balancer today for it. man when my sister finds out i spend her mother's inheritance on this car is she ever gonna be ppppissed!!

The way this year is going i should leave it in the garage until next year!! this has been the worst year of my life! my truck has been at the frame shop for its third week now and it still hasnt made it into the shop yet. i expect at least a $500 bill from them and i have a cracked bell housing.
i'll post a pic of the camaro all together when i can. it has the bumpers on now.
 
#23 ·
I have been watching this thread and Wasn't going to put in my 2¢ but I can no longer do it . I my self think you got the shaft and that guy is laughing all the way to the bank. To me any respectful business man SHOULD keep his customer informed of rising cost and get the CUSTOMERS OK to proceed. The Pic look good but I know first hand pic's can be very deceiving. Hell to me for that kind of money I'd expect to drive it home completed.
But what the hell do I know I'm just a tar heel transplant over 50 in Oregon

:welcome:

Take Care
 
#24 ·
To bad I didn't post this here months ago, it may have saved you some grief who knows.



Confessions of a body shop owner.
By Brian Martin

“Anybody know of a good body shop in (enter your city name here)?”, “How do I get my body shop to work on my car?”, “My car is being held for ransom!”, or just simply “Body shop Blues”. I’m sure you have all seen topics similar to these posted. Gentlemen, my name is MARTINSR and I was one of those dirty rotten bastards that would keep your car ten times longer than I promised.

For the guy not doing his own body work or at least not all of it, he is at the mercy of the body shop. It is not a nice position to be in. In fact, it can go down as one of the low points in your life. I have seen horror stories that would make your hair stand on end. A long time customer of mine (he owned about 60 cars and usually had a few in shops around the area at all times) had a car that was held as evidence in a murder. Yep, it had blood splattered on it when one of the shops owners killed the other with a baseball bat!

The following is my generalization of restoration shops that I have owned, seen or worked at. There are exceptions to the rule. Please don’t beat me up if I have rolled your shop into the mix when you are an exception. But, if you do see yourself, I suggest you get down to your neighborhood junior college and take a course or two in business. One of the great myths is that we each think our business is so unique, we can’t learn from a “regular” business class. Well after much instruction and exposure to the business side of things I can tell you, business is BUSINESS. Whether you are running a liqueur store, a cat house, or a body shop, they are all exactly the same. Sales are SALES, period.

So, we can agree a body shop is a business, being a good body man does not make you a good businessman. Restoration shops are usually owned by good body men, not good businessmen. It is very hard to make money doing restoration work, it is very easy to make money doing regular collision work. The business man makes his money doing collision work and tells all the customers with restoration work to go to Joe’s Body shop down the street, he does the restorations. Joe loves doing what he is doing, but seldom makes much money. He is an artist, a true master at his craft. Joe sees things at what they can “become”, not what they “are”. When Joe sees a car he doesn’t see the time it will take to make it the show winner he knows it will be, he only sees it as the show winner. I really don’t believe he means to lie to you when he says it will be done in a month, he is looking at through rose colored glasses, his vision is altered. Like a woman forgets the pain of giving birth, so does Joe when he gazes upon the beautiful car he has carried for nine months (or longer). And when the next rust bucket rolls in, he has forgotten about the hundreds of hours needed, he only sees a luscious rose garden.

Like I said few make a living at restoration or hot rod work. The biggies that you have heard of like Roy Brizio or Boyd Codington all make money with other ventures, not the rod shop. The first time I visited Brizios shop this was very apparent. The rod shop is about 5000 square feet sitting in the middle of a 50,000 square foot building. The rest of the building is Brizios manufacturing business. It is all non auto related by the way. The rod shop is a hobby, I don’t doubt for a second he makes money, but it is a hobby none the less.

So when you go looking for a shop to do your car you have to remember this, you are most likely going to be dealing with an artist. If you think the business end of it is going to go smooth, think again. If you build yourself up and believe everything, you are in for a BIG let down. If you set yourself up for less than that you will be much better off. I suggest getting ready for MUCH, MUCH less and then you will be happy when it only takes five months instead of the ten you got ready for. If he said one month and that is what you are planning, by the time five months rolls around you are ready to kill someone.

These are HUGE generalizations but I have found a few signs that may help you in picking out a shop. If nothing else they will help you understand who you are dealing with.

1. If there is more than one car sitting in the shop covered with dust, this may be a bad sign. If you have been around body shops much you know that dust build up is like the rings in a tree, you can tell by the layers and colors how many YEARS it has been sitting. If there is a car that is being used for storage of misc. boxes and things, bad sign. My brother used to joke that I should bolt a vise on the fender of the car, at least I could get some use out of it! Coyly ask “Cool car, is that yours?” if he says “Naw, it’s a customers”, BAD SIGN. If there are ten stalls in the shop and six have dust covered cars in them, RUN. I shouldn’t have to tell you this one, but if there are guys hanging around with beers in their hands, RUN.


2. How many stalls does he have? I have found that the real restoration/rod shops seem to have only room to have three or four cars at a time. If you only had room to work on three cars, you are going to be damn certain they get out so you can have room for the next. One of the most successful custom shops I have ever seen was a little four stall shop in Pittsburgh California. It is the famous (well at least on the west coast) DeRosa and son Customs. Frank has been around since the fifties making show winning cars. He and his son Frank Jr. do the same today and do it FAST. They run a neat, little and clean shop. If you have seen the 2001 DuPont calendar they did the “Cadster”. It was only in the shop for a few weeks. By the way, it doesn’t have DuPont primers on it like the calendar says, Martin Senour primer was used.

3. Does he look at your car like they do at the McPaint shops, you know, all jobs all colors the same price? If he doesn’t take a good long look at the car taking notes, he has no clue what he is doing. He is looking at the car with those rose colored glasses. Every single panel should be examined and noted for the amount of hours needed. If he just looks over the car without doing this he is surely going to be WAY off. If he is way off on how much he is charging you, what incentive does he have to work on it?


So let’s say you have a shop you would like to bring it to, you really need to case the joint. Turn into a stalker and keep an eye on the shop. You know for months that you are going to need a body shop. Watch the shops for months. Drive by during business hours and see if they are actually open. Many of these guys (remember they are not good businessmen) take their open sign as sort of a guide line. If it says 8:00 to 5:00 it is more like 9:15 to 2:00 then 4:25 to 7:00, they can’t get your car done like that. See if any cars leave. If you go by there and see the same cars sitting there and many little jobs going in and out, BAD SIGN. I have to tell you, those little money making collision jobs are dang hard to turn away. If I had a million hour job sitting there and it was the 28th of the month I am going to set it aside for the $800.00 job I can do in two days to pay the rent.

If they don’t allow you to walk around and check the place out, be wary. Look at the paint dept, does he have a booth? Is there junk and open cans all over? Is there many different brands of paint? This is usually not a good sign, he buys anything he can get his hands on. This is many times the sign of a “junior chemist”, they guy that mixes products and doesn’t follow tech sheets.

If you have decided that this is the shop you want to go to, help the poor guy. You “suggest” to him how you want to go about the money part. This is the ONLY way you should do it believe me. Don’t EVER give him a deposit and leave the car (at least not more than a tiny amount of the estimate, say 5%). This is darn near a guarantee that your car will be sitting for weeks or MONTHS while he uses that money to buy parts for a high profit collision job or simply pay a long standing bill. Which then leaves your car sitting there with no incentive to work on it.

Here is what you need to do. Tell him that you want to do only ONE of the things on your car, at a time. You want to get a price for all of them maybe so you know what it is headed, but do only one at a time. You will pay him for one step at a time. Not because you don’t trust him, but because YOU are bad with money and that YOU don’t want to leave him hanging after the car is done with no money to pick it up.

This way it is more like he is in control and made the decision. Then you negotiate the time it will take for each step. Let’s say you have patch panels to do on the front fenders. You agree that he will have them done at the end of the week, and that they will cost $200.00. He has something to work for, he knows he will get the money and he actually does it. You go see him on Friday see the work done and give him the $200.00. Then you pick another thing to do. Just as if you were doing these things at home, break them down into bite sized pieces so he can swallow them. If you go in there and find that he hasn’t done it or he has done poor work, you can then say “I am sorry to yank your chain, I don’t have any more money, I just lost my job” and take the car, no body owes a thing. If he does not want to do this, you really need to start rethinking your choice of a shop. Either this or variation of this should be fine with him. If it is not, something is wrong.

If he really wanted to make money he would be doing this. The first restoration job I ever did where I really felt I made money was done just this way. It was a little ’58 Bug eye Sprite. I had decided that something had to be done or I would fall into the same trap as before with a car sitting forever. One of the first shops I ever worked at was a full on restoration shop. It broke the rule and was pretty big, with four full time employees. Every car had a time card assigned to it. When you worked on the car, you punched in. Then each month (these were HUGE frame off restorations on 30’s and 40’s vintage Fords) the owner would receive a bill with the times worked. If they couldn’t pay, the car left, period. The guy made money and I finally got smart (after about 12 years in business) and followed his lead. I put a sign on this Bug Eye and would post the hours I spent on it. I told the guy to come by each week. Now, when the guy came in and saw only two hours were spent, he was not very happy. That was a heck of an incentive for me right there I will tell you that! It worked great, I actually got paid for every minute I worked, unlike most restoration projects. And he actually got the car back in close to what I said. It was still late, but not ten times as late as I had done before.

Another thing I highly recommend is to take plenty of photos of the car, really detailed photos. When you drop the car off leave him a copy of them. Letting him know you have a copy. Not threatening like “I am doing this so I can prove you lied to me” more like “I can’t wait to see how different it is and you can have these before shots to show future customers”. Which is true, it is just not the only reason you are doing it. If he is doing a full on restoration for you, I HIGHLY recommend parts like chrome and interior be taken home after he removes them so they don’t get stolen or damaged. You need to have a very close relationship with the shop, if these visits make the guy edgy, you really need to find another shop.

If you have the attitude that you are genuinely interested in how this work is done, not how he will do YOUR car, but just in general. You will find that he will be much more likely to “show off” his talents than if you go in there like an untrusting customer.

Along with these photos you want a VERY detailed work order. Run like the wind if he has no work order. Still run if he has a work order that says “fix dents and rust” as the repairs being done. RUN, I say. You need to have a fully detailed work order, not for legal reasons (wink, wink) but for your own records to show the wife where all the money went. The “wife” is a great way to get things done. You need to come look to see what is done because the wife wants to see. Bring her in there, she has an excuse, she knows nothing right? So you bring her in to see what magic this guy is doing to your car so she can understand why it costs so much. Bring a friend when you drop the car off, be sure he hears everything that is said. Let him or her help you make the decision on leaving it there. Sometimes YOU too can be looking through rose colored glasses. If someone else says they have a bad feeling, LISTEN to them.

There are few things that can compare with returning to a shop to find the place is locked tight and the mail is piling up on the floor where the carrier has dropped it through the slot. I have seen it, it really happens. The good news is it is rare, just take your time and find a shop where you feel comfortable.
 
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