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Old 12-18-2012, 06:58 PM
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Looking for new paint brand

Sorry if this has already been discussed and I know everyone is going to have an opinion. What I need is facts from people who paint professionally. With that being said here is the problem, we (myself, my father, and a few other local shops) started having trouble about 3-4 months ago with base coat coverage. Lately it has been taking 2-3 times as many coats as before to get even coverage. I thought maybe it was our supplier, but I have asked several local shops and they are having the same problem out of DBC, shopline plus and shopline. The shopline and shopline plus I know are cheaper lines of paint and I expect some variance, but even the DBC is not covering any more. I am currently doing a repaint on a 56 Chevy and the bottom of the hood and trunk lid took almost 3 sprayable quarts of white to cover gray urethane primer. This problem just started a few months ago and until this car I had done several small partial jobs on newer model stuff with minor repairs and used metallic colors, so I related it to high transparent colors. But this is plain solid white, It should have covered with 3 coats max and we ended up using 8-10. Again several local shops are having the same problem with DBC and PPG paints, so its not just something I am doing wrong. I am looking to see what you guys are using with good results. Thanks in advance. And by the way we have even spoken to the locaPPG paint rep and got no more than a vague "well all paint is not covering like it used to since they are lowering VOC's......."

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Old 12-18-2012, 07:46 PM
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OK, I used to be a PPG rep and 2 things that PPG had going for it with the DBC (Deltron) and Global line was good coverage and good color match (providing the right variant was chosen). I live in Canada and we have VOC laws that for the past 2 years we have not been able to purchase Deltron or Global because of these products not meeting VOC regulations, everything up here is now Envirobase (water born) or VOC compliant Omni. I can't see PPG reducing VOC's and not allowing good coverage. The only non water borne that PPG offers in Canada is VOC compliant Omni...which never did cover as well as Deltron.

You say other shops in your area are having the same concerns...are they using the same jobber? Are you mixing your colors or is the jobber mixing your colors for you? 8 to 10 coats, on a white, is just not acceptable or cost effective. I don't want to speak out of school here but I know of a local jobber that, in order to increase his gross profit was using more binder and even DBC 500 in the formula than the formula called for...if this is happening to you, (and I'm not saying it is) does your base coat after being flashed look silkier or even shinier than it used to...extra binder or DBC 500 will not effect the color but will give you a smoother looking pre cleared finish.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that something is amiss...even Omni, the toners where the same, they changed the binder and the reducer to meet VOC legislation. All paint companies have low hiders but 8 to 10 coats...Do you know these other shops well enough to have them mix a 1/2 pint of the same formula for you and see if there is a difference in coverage? That would be one way of checking up on your jobber...I'm not trying to point fingers, just discussing possibilities.

Are the reducer's the same as in the past? The regular DT line?

I've been a rep for PPG, Dupont and ICI (Nexa) and for a rep to say that the poor coverage is because of lowering VOC's...I would ask the rep what the manufacturer is doing to lower VOC's...if the reducer's are the same DT line and your using 2 to 3 times as much reduced paint...how is that lowering VOC's? If I was your the rep in your area I would mix a small amount and give it to you to try to see if there is a difference. Don't give up on this one...is there another PPG jobber in your area? If not, what about Dupont or RM?

Please keep me informed...I'm very interested and still have relationships within the three organizations...well 2 organizations since PPG bought out Nexa.

Ray
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Old 12-18-2012, 07:57 PM
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69widetrack, we are having the paint mixed at a supplier and I had thought of the possiblitly that they are trying to add to their profit by over thinning or adding binders. The other shops I refer to are very reputable and experienced businesses and they have the same coverage problems we are. All of us are buying the paint mixed from suppliers, but there are atleast 3 different suppliers involved so I don't know if they are all possibly "padding" the mix or not but it is a possibility. We have used Nason in the past with good result on cheaper jobs and I'd love to use Glasurit or R-M but there are no dealers in our area. Martin Senour and Dupont are the only other two available locally and I dont know if Dupont will change anything or not since they were purchased by Carlyle. I can say I was able to spray the white base (DBC) used on the 56 without any reducer (just tried it on a scrap piece to see because it seemed to thin before reducer) which I thought was strange, because it actually sprayed very well and flashed off in 5-10 minutes. So I don't know, I would like to think my supplier which we have been doing business with for over 10 years is not doctoring up the mix, but it is definitely a possibiltiy I guess. Thanks for the reply
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:09 PM
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If your base flashed within 5 to 10 minutes without reducer and it was thinner... and you reduced it again...and you say it takes twice as many coats to cover...what does it smell like?...does it smell like reducer before you reduce it? Does your jobber have a new guy mixing paint? If the jobber does, it might be an honest mistake, but you should be compensated...I can see it happening, if they send an new inexperienced employee to paint school and they teach the individual how to mix paint...the person may think he needs to add reducer...stranger things have happened...smell the paint and see if you can detect a reducer smell...un-reduced paint should not dry in 10 minutes if sprayed the recommended way and at normal temperatures.

It's a starting point and now that you mention that the other shops are all using the same jobber and having the jobber mix paint for them...it's starting to walk like a duck and smell like a duck...get more information to see if it is a duck.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:24 PM
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I'm sorry, I must have misread your post...You say there are 3 different suppliers involved? Are they all PPG suppliers in your area? Or are they shops from different area's? If they are, are their jobber stores owned by the same person?

I just looked at some Deltron I had left over from the days when we could still spray it...(a pint of black that had never been opened). It's not reduced and it looks like it would be tough to get out of the gun and get it to lay down properly without reducer, let alone flash in 5 to 10 minutes.

Do you know of any body shops in your area that use PPG and have their own mixing system? If you do I would take a sample of what your buying to the shop and get their opinion.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:26 PM
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Thats that thing tha confuses me, the other shops are using different suppliers, all several miles apart. I'll do a little more examination when I get to the shop in the morning and get back with you tomorrow night. thanks again
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:31 PM
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Yes please...As I said, I am in no position to point fingers and if the paint is being reduced at your jobber and then you reduce it, it may be an honest mistake...I'm going to send off a few emails of my own.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:34 PM
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The other suppliers are all owned by the same national chain brand, but not by the same person. Maybe someone else that is using DBC and other PPG lines will chime in and tell if they are having the same problem. If it were just us I would say it was possibly something I was doing, but I have been painting with primarily PPG products for almost 10 years and my dad has been painting for almost 40 years. This is a problem that has been going on for about 3-4 months with several of the local shops that all use PPG brands and there are at least 3 different suppliers owned by different individuals.
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Old 12-18-2012, 08:40 PM
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The one thing that I can't understand is if your using the same DT line of reducers and your using twice as much paint, how is the PPG rep justifying it by saying that you have less coverage because of PPG lowering VOC's...It doesn't make any logical sense...you are using the same reducers, correct?
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:04 AM
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Yes, we have changed nothing about the paint, reducers, clear, primer, or the process we go through when painting. The supplier is the same etc., nothing has changed except the coverage of the paint.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:09 AM
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And let me correct myself, I said local PPG rep. I think it was the PPG rep. I talked to the supplier and he called someone and transferred me to who he referred to as "the rep" and we had a converstaion over the phone. Now that I think of it the man I spoke with may very well have been the comany rep for the supplier. I will try to get a contact number or email for the PPG rep and get back with you on that response. I appologise for any confusion but this just occured to me and I wanted to clarify myself and not falsely acuse anyone.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:26 AM
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Kind of funny but talking to 50-130 people a day on the tech line, I hear the same thing with coverage on all the brands.
Let me just add two things for you to think about.
1) making a base coat, 50-90% of the cost depending on the color is the cost of tint. Cut back 10% on the tint and it goes right to the bottom line as profit and the best part, no price increase was announced.
2) It is not your jobber as it would be suicide for him to add extra binder, only thing they could really do is cut the volume in the can 5-10% and hope you don't notice, for extra profit.
3) The Voc answer is pure BS, to meet the lower VOC's you will find those paints are normally thicker and a change of solvents.

If I was looking for the best bang for the dollar as a shop, I would be looking at the following.
Metal Lux
Wanda
Prospray.
Matrix
Transtar low VOC.

All of these have been time tested and matches like any other paint line, good but like all lines you will always have a few colors that don't cut it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:43 AM
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Agree with everything you said Barry...I've spent some time thinking about this and can't see 3 different suppliers doctoring a product to improve a bottom line....and for a rep to say that it's because of lowering VOC's and still using the same reducer???? I've used Pro Spray and again, your right...it sprays well, respectable coverage and I'd almost say it's the AMC of the automotive refinish world....it has all the same problems that the big guys have, just not the following of die hard customers...yet.

Very interesting about no price increase...is that for all the majors or just PPG? I was a rep for many years and no price increase would be a first, to my memory an annual price increase was like Easter, it comes every year, just not on the same calender date...is this a push for everybody switching to water born? A product that the refinish companies have a great deal of money invested into launching and are hoping that universal government legislation will make it mandatory....In Canada we had many end dates for solvent based products postponed and postponed until finally January 1 2011 it became reality.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:53 AM
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Very interesting about no price increase...is that for all the majors or just PPG? I was a rep for many years and no price increase would be a first, to my memory an annual price increase was like Easter, it comes every year, just not on the same calender date...is this a push for everybody switching to water born? A product that the refinish companies have a great deal of money invested into launching and are hoping that universal government legislation will make it mandatory....In Canada we had many end dates for solvent based products postponed and postponed until finally January 1 2011 it became reality.[/QUOTE]

Ray, I don't remember when this started but I want to say about 15 years ago, one major did it first in the USA and the base that I really liked went from two coat coverage to 3-6 and when you *****ed, the book response given to the jobbers was, then buy our premium line. That company in a short time probably lost 30% market share real fast BUT, then the others followed.

Bean counters, do not paint!
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:57 AM
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I think I know the paint...was it an acrylic enamel?
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