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Old 01-10-2005, 07:09 PM
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Looking to paint my car with OEM quality finish. Have some Questions

I've been doing a lot of searches on here and researching quite a bit on here. Great forum you guys have! Very helpful articles & posts, more helpful than any other site I could find on the internet.

Only problem is, I don't plan on spending much money to paint my car and I'm only looking for an OEM-quality finish. I have a 1993 Ford Festiva that has no rust, and still has factory paint. I've painted my Mazda MX-3 in the past and it turned out pretty bad. I went from a bright red to a slightly darker grey metallic color and I had lack of coverage, only minor runs here and there (my own fault) and A LOT of orange peel on the clear coat.

I have a few questions. I guess i'll just list them instead of ramble on.

First here is my setup:
Coleman 6hp 21 gallon tank: 7.7 CFM @ 40psi, 6.0 CFM @ 90psi
Ignersoll-Rand 33. oz HVLP top-feed gun w/1.5mm tip, 43 max psi and Avg air consumption of 8.2 CFM.
Companion (generic sears brand) DA sander w/6" pad

I plan to use sherwin-williams urethane single stage Western Dimension paint & clearcoat. I'm using overall clearcoat w/overall hardener (4-1 mix ratio) and their Dimension paint (2-1 ratio w/reducer).

Here are my questions:

1): Any problem with the paint I'm using? Its like $20-30 a qt for the paint & $20 for a qt of clear. I know its cheap stuff, but I don't want to spend hundreds on paint alone.

2): Since the car only has the factory coat of paint, can't I just scuff up the paint and paint over that? I don't see the need to strip it to bare metal & primer it unless I'm going for a flawless job.

3): If scuffing up the paint is ok, what grit do you recommend using? I used 320 and 400 (mixed 6" discs) when I did my Mazda a year ago.

4): After scuffing up the paint, do I need to use any kind of prep wash? When I did my mazda, I just used a dry cloth to get rid of the paintdust & used a tack cloth to get the rest off.

5): Is my compressor / HVLP gun setup bad? I know I should use a compressor that puts out at least 8.2 CFM at 40psi but those cost over twice as much as my compressor/tank setup costs. Should I just let it charge up when the air gets low and stop painting? or should I be OK using it as is?

6): I read the FAQ's regarding painting and in the FAQ #4 tips for setting the spray nozzle are mentioned. I fear this was the main problem with my horrible orange peel & runs when painting my Mazda. Problem is, my gun has three different controls you can set, the fluid control valve (which is what that FAQ talks about setting), the spray-pattern adjuster and the air adjustment valve. How should I set my spray adjustment valve? How big of an area should that "cigar shape" be from 8" away?

7): Which way should I set my nozzle? So the pattern is horizontal or vertical? I'd think vertical is best since it is easier to see, but do you guys have any recommendations?

8): When spraying, exactly how far away should the gun be from the surface? I've read a bunch of stuff like 6", 8" even 12".

9): When spraying a metallic paint. Do you recommend using numerous light coats, or 2-3 medium coats?

10): Any tips on how to heat up a garage during the winter without risk of blowing yourself up? I have a kerosene heater that has an open afteburner-style flame. I have a basement with a door leading to my 2-car garage. I was thinking of setting the heater up in the basement, and having a fan blow into the garage the hot air to help heat up the garage to a decent temperature. Is this a recipe for disaster? When I painted my car before, I could barely smell anything once I was done and removed my respirator (it was also a urethane paint btw).

Please help this poor festiva before I ruin it!!

http://projectmazda.com/festiva/mycar/julyfront.jpg

Thanks in advance.

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Old 01-11-2005, 09:12 AM
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1) Yes, Western is pretty bad paint. Has a very short life. I wouldn't use it except for a beater that I was selling immediately. I would recommend going w/ Nason base coat/clear coat - great compromise of price/quality. There is no way to get a quality job w/o spending a few $hundred nowadays.

2, 3) Yes, carefully sand the car w/ 320. Prime and sand any bondo repairs and/ or bare metal spots. Fix any chips, small dents, etc. Paint will not cover them up, in fact it will accentuate them and drive you nuts later. You MUST spray on a sealer before the final coats to be sure something from down below doesn't bleed up through the color coats later.

4) You MUST was wash the surface with a wax/grease/silicone remover. New paints are very unforgiving of surface contamination and will fish-eye from almost anything.

5) There is something wrong with your compressor specification. A 6HP compressor should be capable of +12cfm @ 120psig without raising a sweat. 5HP like the one I have crank out 10cfm @ 120psig. IF yours is truly 6HP, you should be able to speed it up with a larger drive pulley and get the proper quantity of air. DO NOT try to cheap out and do the job with too little air. That is the likely reason for your sandpaper finish on your last paint job. Modern paints are very persnickety when not properly atomized. Rent a larger compressor if necessary.

6) Pressure is probably your biggest problem. You should have a pressure gauge @ the gun handle. Spray pattern should be ~6"-8" tall. It will pretty much tell you when it is right by the way the paint lays down.

7) Vertical.

8) 8" is a good place to start. Depends on what you are doing. For door jambs, you need to cut the paint feed, air and pattern down for fine feed to get into the fine spots w/o runs. For panels, open it up and go for it.

9) Metallic is the hardest finish for even the most seasoned pros. Almost impossible to do a good job on the first try. Best shot is to spray door jambs etc. and let them dry. Then spray the exterior all at one time. Spray three coats - tack, two medium coats, one w/ vertical passes, one w/ horizontal passes. Finally hold the gun back 12" or so and fog on a light coat so the metal flakes dust the surface of the paint which, if done right, will even out the inevitable streaks that appear in metallic.

10) With all of your other issues, I wouldn't tack on trying to do a cold weather job which is another layer of complexity. Wait 'til a 70deg spring day.

You are obviously a novice which isn't a bad thing but realize that your first job won't be the perfect show stopper you visualize. This is one skill that takes a lot of practice to get right, no way around that. Be sure to take care of the weaknesses identified above to lessen the problems you will face.
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Old 01-11-2005, 10:41 AM
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About that compressor-there has been a lot of discussion about compressors here lately and that coleman is a prime example of the downright fraudulent claims made by some companies regarding HP ratings. No doubt that is "peak" HP and not true HP which will be a LOT less. I am not a paint pro but I am aware of what can happen when you run out of air in the middle of a paint job! I would think a better compressor is needed here.
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Old 01-11-2005, 08:04 PM
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willys36, thanks SO much for your reply! Very helpful.

Unfortunately I already have a bunch of western clearcoat and I know mixing paints is bad. My budget for this paintjob is $300 for everything: sandpaper, paint, prep materials and stuff. I already spent about $110 on teh clearcoat & sandpaper and some buckets to mix the paint with.

When i did my MX-3 it cost me about 500 dollars to buy all paint, sandpaper, prep stuff & my new paintgun (120 dollars) water trap for the tank & a air dryer for the gun, as well as my DA sander.

Based on reading your response, my gut feeling was confirmed. My atomization was way too large & obviously my tip wasn't set properly. On top of that, I was an idiot and removed the hood, fenders, bumper and painted those seperate from the hatch & doors and roof. You can tell differences between panels. I got the doorjambs and honestly, they came out better than any other part of the car.

Here are some pics I took right after I sprayed the car. They are at night & not very big so they don't show much but you can see some bleed-through of the red on the rear bumper and see how dull the clearcoat looks & bumpy:

http://www.projectmazda.com/host/newpaint/

Here is some daytime shots of the car a week later. I never bothered sanding the clear b/c I knew how crappy of a job the paint came out so I basically figured spending hours to sand would be a wasted effort. You can really see the uneven metallic pattern on the doors in these daytime shots...looks like lack of coverage:

http://www.projectmazda.com/host/paint/


And just to clarify, you mean before I paint my basecoat I should spray the entire car with a coat of sealer? My only concern with this is that you can't sand sealer (or aren't supposed to) and if it orange peels, it'll basically ruin all of the basecoats & clearcoats i put on top of it. Or am I missing something?

Also. Since my compressor obviously can't feed my gun continuously, would it be OK if I sprayed until the compressor kicked on (it does it pretty fast), then stop...wait for it to charge the tank back up to 120psi, then continue spraying. This is what I did when I did the mazda. The compressor kicks on at about 70-80psi and charges back up to 120-130 psi in about 2 minutes. I'm not sure how I can spray continuously before it will kick back on again, i never timed it.

Anyways, thanks in advance for your great help! I know i'm a pain in the arse with all these newbie questions but I love learning stuff and I actually plan on writing a "how to paint your car yourself" how-to. Isn't that scary?? but i'll post it here and have you guys correct/add stuff before I post it on my web forum. basically a guide for people like me; poor teenage-early 20's college students who want to save money & learn by doing it themselves.

again, thank you!

Quote:
Originally posted by oldred
About that compressor-there has been a lot of discussion about compressors here lately and that coleman is a prime example of the downright fraudulent claims made by some companies regarding HP ratings. No doubt that is "peak" HP and not true HP which will be a LOT less. I am not a paint pro but I am aware of what can happen when you run out of air in the middle of a paint job! I would think a better compressor is needed here.
Yeah, it has a sticker on the side saying "6HP PEAK" so i'm sure it probably runs more like 4-4.5hp continuously. I am poor and can't afford to buy a hardcore compressor yet (but will in the future). So I have to use this one. I might look into renting one though, if I can transport it here, that sounds like a feasible option.


Oh yeah. As for painting the doorjambs & engine bay (the festiva is getting a brand new engine & transmission at the same time as the paint job). I know maneveuring the paint gun with a huge paint cup on top & air hose on the bottom is pretty much impossible in an engine bay and for the door jambs.

Would using a rechargable spray-can using the paint I mixed work well? I bought it from harbor frieght for 10 dollars and it lets you unscrew the top and pour 8oz of paint into it. Cap it, then use your air compressor to charge it up to about 50psi (there is another 8oz of empty space inside...16oz total). Then you can spray it with 4 different nozzles they give you.

I figured using this spraycan would be ideal for smaller areas like under the hatch, behind the doors (like when you open them) and hard to get places under the hood. I know the finish won't come out as perfect as a spray gun, but I am pretty sure it will come out satisfactory as I've had some really good results using spraycans on other stuff in the past.

Last edited by Gro Harlem; 01-11-2005 at 08:04 PM.
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Old 01-12-2005, 11:12 AM
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I think your compressor is to small for the job. When you starve the gun for air pressure you get orange peel. The job needs to be sprayed with a wet edge working throughout, so taking rest breaks while the compressor catches up may be a problem. You might be able to improve your results by buying a reducer that is for a higher temperature range than the ambient you have. That would allow the paint to flow out some more.

I've read that if your first coat of clear has peel, that sets the tone for the job. The first coat needs to be wet and flow out, but not so wet it runs.

Your starting out with a long list of compromises that will lead to disappointment. Why not just take the $300 budget to Macco or another box store and let them shot it? They do okay on the shooting, it's the prep that costs money. They use the cheaper paints and they don't hold up, but your starting out with cheap paints anyway.

Are you shooting isocyanate based paint? If so, how are you protecting your health?
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:36 PM
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OK heres my input... one thing i noticed is almost all the panels on that gray car dont match. when spraying large areas try and walk the panel(start from front end at the back without stopping in the middle). your dryness may be something with your ventalation or lack of. orange peel is prolly a combination of the tip size of your gun and the lack of atomozation.

read the tech article on setting up the gun. also use an appropriate sealer; one close in color. my first paint job was a metallic as long as u follor a decent overlap u shouldnt have a problem there.

and i think you can get away with doing the jambs with that rechargable sprayer... prolly a beginners best bet.

With this all said go to home depot and rent a bigger compressor, get a gun with a smaller nozzle, and use a sealer and if your ventalation isnt to great beef that up a bit. if ur garage has a window at the opposite end that ur placing ur fan open that up and tape a furnace filter so you have a cross flow.

Buddy M.
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Old 01-13-2005, 02:22 AM
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Thanks guys, I seriously think I will look into renting a compressor for a day or something. If its like $50-60 it will be worth it. I was pricing compressors today and the only one I would consider was about $400 and could put out 14cfm at 40 and like 11.5 at 90psi which would be adequete, but I don't think I am able to spend $400 as of right now.


Also, I think I might see if I can return the clearcoat I bought and get some of that Nason paint, I found a dealer really close to where I live. I also was pricing it and it might cost me $50 more to buy the dupont Nason than the crappy western dimension paint I was going to use.


As for the weather. i don't know. I might actually wait on painting the entire car until the spring when its a nicer day outside. But I MUST paint the engine bay soon as I'm going to have the engine out of the car within a couple of days and I don't see how i'd do it any other time. besides, I don't honestly care if the engine bay doens't turn out super amazing....as long as I get coverage & it looks good. I'm also probably going to do the door jambs, underside of the hood, underside of the doors & hatchlid & the rim around the hatchlid as well.

If I have time, I'll sand the body down, bondo the 3 dings on the body and repair the dent on the side, and spray over it with sealer.


Here is my final idiot question.

First off, I was trying to find a good answer to what sealer does. It seems it fills in the small microscopic pits & lines that are a result of sanding and seals primer/paint and body filler from water contamination (or am I wrong?) & promotes the paint to adhere to the body. I also read it is rubbery and can't be sanded. Am I missing anything important here? Should I use a different spraygun for the sealer? I only have one at the moment & I read that primer should have a seperate gun, but i'm not sure about sealer.

If I were to prep the body in the next week or so and spray it with a coat of sealer, would I be OK to drive the car a few thousand miles like that or is that a dumb idea?
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Old 01-13-2005, 08:12 AM
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Sealer is designed to block out any under lying dyes, promote adhesion, and also make the car a uniform color for better coverage. all the sealers i use i dont think they fill any scratches or pits but i usually fix them before i even think about sealer.

Definatly go for the nason even in single stage if you have to. it will prolly run you about 90$ for 3 quarts with the reducer and hardner.. ONLY GET SINGLE STAGE IF IT IS A SOLID COLOR. Metalic single stage is a PITA. it cant be color sanded so ur left with what you got. but even if you go for the nason bc/cc it will still be very affordable and will look good if done right. and you should also think about getting a different gun. if you have ebay you can find a ton of hvlp guns with any size nozzle you can think of. get a 1.4 and you can spray everythign with that. i personally have 1 gun for ever different step but i am no longer a diy painter i do it for a living. but when i wasnt i had one or two guns and i just made sure they were super clean.

and if your looking to paint the engine bay within a few days you can use any kind of heater really. you could even use a propane radiant heater since its a confined area. there slightly inexpensive.

hope this helps
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Old 01-14-2005, 05:28 AM
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I went to one of the only places that sells the Nason brand of dupont paint (over a half hour away) and they said they had a single-stage urethane where the clear is part of the paint & you use an activator/hardener with the paint. I was going to get this but the guy at the counter told me that it is more difficult to spray than the basecoat/clearcoat 2 stage.


Any truth to that? The single-stage stuff was cheaper so I'm thinking he's trying to get me to pay another hundred for the 2 stage stuff, but I don't know.

Only thing i can think of is that 2-stage allows you to sand between coats (if it isn't metallic) and clear up any imperfections before you spray your next coat while a single stage that hardens offers no opportunity.
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Old 01-14-2005, 09:44 AM
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I have to tell you that S-W paint is every bit as good as the NASON. I found Dimension (Western and Dimension are two different things, at least on the label. What do you have Western OR Dimension?) to be a very user friendly paint, and have had no problems with it. NASON is certainly NO better.

Your application problems are just that, APPLICATION problems, not product problems. There are thousands upon thousands of people who apply those products everyday and are happy with their performance.

I think there is nothing easier than the modern bc/cc system. You do NOT usually sand the base as you mentioned, you can however take your time and apply color without any worry about gloss. THEN, you apply the clear and ALL you have to worry about is the gloss. I have simplified it a little because you have "even coverage" to be concerned with both, but I feel it is much easier too apply. I am NOT saying anyone is wrong for suggesting the SS, it really would be a good choice as well. I am just stating my personal opinion. If it is a metallic as mentioned, bc/cc is a MUST for anyone who is not seriously expericanced.

I am with the others your compressor just isn't enough, PERIOD. If you were to shoot it with a NON HVLP gun, it would work, but that HVLP gun needs a LOT of volume (the "V" in HVLP, "H" being for HIGH).

Speaking of eBay, go search out an old Devilbiss JGA502 probably the best gun ever made. They can be found on Ebay for the same price as some junk off shore you would buy today at Harbor Freight.

Have you read the FAQ page on "How do I paint my car"? discussing atomization?

(CLICK HERE)

Last edited by MARTINSR; 01-14-2005 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 01-14-2005, 10:47 PM
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Boy, isn't it a shame that we don't still have DUCO and DULUX readily available to learn how to paint with anymore?
I can recall bringing a car in from the car wash, pulling the easy pieces of chrome, wiping it off with 120 grit, taping it up, spraying it, and going out that night. A day or so later, you came back, pulled the tape, and determined whether to put the chrome back on or wait another day.
Now, if you touch it with anything bigger than 400, you will see it through anything; I can sand the car in a day, if it isn't too bad, otherwise, I have to go to bed, and come back another day. I can tape a car and get it ready, but I'll not spray it that day--I need to take another nap.
Getting old is Hell.
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Old 01-15-2005, 06:19 AM
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Well the paint I bought before I got from a sherwin-williams dealer. The label is blue and has a sphere on it w/ "4th DIMENSION" around the sphere in a circular pattern. And on the upper left you see the "western" logo as well as on the text label on the back of it. It says "Western Automotive Finishes" on the back as well, but also mentions the s-w website. Its cheap stuff. I bought a qt of dark green for my buddies spoiler & front bumper for $17.

And I will definitely NOT be using my compressor. Luckily, my buddy up the road has a much larger compressor with a 15cfm rating at 90psi. I might be able to use his garage to spray my car, but I"m still not sure. If not, I'll rent a compressor.

My gun is supposedly pretty good. I did some research on which ones are crap and which ones are decent and I had a couple people suggest the I-R 270G and to NOT buy a cheap generic harbor freight / advance auto parts gun. But those same people said a skilled person could take the crappiest gun on earth and still spray a car with a decent coat.
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Old 01-15-2005, 07:31 AM
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heres my $.02. most paint mixing stores has a shelf full of mismixed paints, and most will either give them to you, or sell it real cheap. get some and practice till you get it right. as for preping it i always wet sand with 400 grit and comet,the comet will remove any grease,oil. rinse it well and shoot it.as far as the air comp is concerned,i have sprayed dozens of cars with a 20 gal speed-air comp.that only puts out like 8 cfm.do away with the hvlp gun and get a regular gun and use a slow dry reducer and you will be o kay.if you getting orange peel you are not getting enough paint on and its is drying to fast for the paint to lay down.when i spray base-coat /clear-coat, i have a old hood that i lay up beside my shop and i always shoot it when i walk into the shop to shoot the clear and i wait till i can touch it with my thumb and it only leaves a finger print then i shoot it a gain and then shoot the car and wait till i can only leave a thumb print in the hood again then i shoot it again and then the car again.works real good for me.main thing is get some old paint and practice first. then start the real deal.


as for as the paint guns go i have 6 guns( binks, old devilbis, sata gravity feed,mac tools gun,two cornwell guns) i use the mac to spray primer and the old devilbis to spray paint with.the gun playes a part in the quality of the job but its not as big a part as everybody wants to believe.technique and prep. is the main two factors that determine the quality of the job.

Last edited by engineman302; 01-15-2005 at 07:42 AM.
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