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Old 03-28-2013, 11:52 PM
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It looks like someone sprinkled sand in my paint job!

I am having a paint problem and I am not sure what you would call it. Shortly after applying the first coat of paint it looks like tiny grains of sand sprinkled all thru the surface. I don't think its fish eyes but not really sure. The sand in the paint look appears with epoxy primer, primer sealer, and paint. Poured material thru a filter as I was putting it into the gun.

In an attempt to find out what the problem is, I got three new 2X2 pieces of sheet metal and divided it into thirds. One third I cleaned with amonia, one third I cleaned with surface wash, which is the cleaner recomended by the paint manufacturer, and one third I cleaned with dawn dish washing soap. I wet the surface and wiped it off before it dryed with the amonia and surface wash, and just rinsed it off with the dawn. Let dry for two hours. I sprayed epoxy primer on one sheet, primer sealer on one, and paint on the other.

I reserved a space on each sheet and used a brand new paint brush and painted the material on each sheet with the paint brush to take the compressor, air line, filter, and spray gun out of the picture.

On each sheet I have both sprayed material, and brushed on material, and I get this same sand in paint effect whether I sprayed it or brushed it on all the way across each sheet, it made no difference. I even sanded this down re-cleaned tried it again and the same thing happened again. When you run your hand across the surface you can feel the nibs sticking up. No orange peel at all. High gloss finish that looks like sand sprinkled in.

I took several of the tiny grains off the sheet with an exacto knife and looked at it with a ten X magnifier thinking I would see some type of impurity in the paint and found nothing.

Compressor - Quincy 7.5 hp 80 gallon 22.5 cfm at 175 psi. (Drained tank and filter before starting.)
Air line - (Temporary set up) 50 ft 3/8 hose from compressor to air filter/regulator, then another 50 feet to the spray gun which has an air filter just before air enters gun.
Set the psi at the wall at 125 and tried three different psi at the gun at 25, 30, and 40. No sign of water or oil at the end of the air hose. Do pick up a little moisture at the filter 50 feet from the compressor.
Spray gun - HVLP - Adjusted the fan the width of my thumb and pinky finger. Adjusted the volume until I got an even coat across the fan. No orange peel at all.
Paint - Summit line of paint and primers. White single stage urethane paint. Gray epoxy and sealer. Poured material thru a paint filter before putting it into the gun.
Temperature - 72 degrees used the appropriate reducer

Does anyone have any idea of what is causing this and how to fix it?? Thanks

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Old 03-29-2013, 04:18 AM
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If this was happening with just one type of product, it would be easy to figure but with same thing happening in every product and you say it does when brushing, just don't add up.

Need a couple of good pictures so we can see exactly what is happening.
Your compressor set up is for sure a water sprayer and will and is a problem but then you say it does it with a brush? Is that one product or did you try all, with the brush? Makes no sense.

Need pictures!
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:22 AM
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Try using a tac rag before spraying
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:05 AM
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So far you have 2 posts from people that are well versed in the paint industry, pictures (as BarryK mentioned) in cases like this are worth more than a thousand words..."Deadbodyman" suggested a tack cloth, if your not using one, it would be a good idea to start.

Now I'll add my 2 cents worth...are you using a common additive in the paint and primer/sealer...like a common hardner etc. If you are using a common additive that has gone bad and over time they can go bad and give you a seedy paint finish. This seedy paint finish will look like dirt in the paint and no matter how much straining you do it will always look like dirt. So, again, my questions would be, are you using a common additive in all products your using? How old is the paint that your using? Are all the products from the same Brand...ie. all Summit recommended products, paint, primer, reducer and hardner, they all need to work together, it's never a good idea to use another manufacturer's hardner or reducer with another manufacturer's paint and primer?

All we can do now is speculate, as BarryK said...if you could post pictures, we could determine much more easily what the problem is.

Ray
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Old 03-29-2013, 07:24 AM
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also the conditions your painting in,like (I assume) no dedicated paint booth, so the trash is coming from somewhere...do you have an exhaust fan and filterd air coming in? is there a heater vent blowing air over the work area...If you have a fan it could be sucking trash in from every single crack in the shop.Having two fans ,one blowin in and one blowing out can do wonders, it creates a positive pressure in the shop that sucks the trash and dust out insted of in...(like painting in a balloon with a slow leak,the air can ONLY go out)
For final prep use ONLY real (good quality) wax & grease remover if you use that crap duplicolor sells at O'rielys you might as well get that brush and paint the car with that. I bought some of it in an emergency and had more trouble than if I hadnt used any at all...
Posting a few pics of the shop your painting in (include the ceiling) will also be a big help...
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:31 AM
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Sand appearance in the paint - questions answered

Thanks for the response so far. Answers to your questions are as follows:

The paint and primers are all brand new.

The paint, epoxy, and sealer all use a different reducer. No common additive.

I did use all Summit Racing products thru out.

I am painting in my garage with filtered incoming air, but I turned the fans off to paint my small 2X2 sheets. I swept, vacuumed, and moped the floor, and let the floor dry before I started painting. Cleaned everything else off with compressed air and waited 2 days to paint. I do not store any chemicals in the garage at all to reduce the chance of silicone contamination. Moped the floor last. I have painted cars in this garage for years and never had a problem before, but I did use PPG products and Dupont Imron in the past. This is my first time to use the Summit brand products.

Summit does not recomend the use of grease and wax remover as a final wipe down. They recomended their surface wash, wipe on wet, wipe off before it drys method, and that is what I did. I used new plain white Bounty paper towels to wipe it down. I read all of their tech sheets 4 times and followed their advise to the letter.

I don't think the imperfection would show in a photo, but I will give that a shot. You have to hold the panel at just the right angle in just the right light to see it. The specs are small but go all the way accross the panel.

I am like Barry, the whole thing doesn't make sense especially when I brush painted the paint on, and tried to disect several of the specs and found nothing. This is the straingest thing I have ever encountered. Its discouraging when you take every precaution you can think of, and still have problems.

I appreciate the information I have received so much. I will take a photo, as I agree a picture is worth a thousand words.
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Old 03-29-2013, 09:51 AM
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It is the paper towels, like dead body wrote, blow off and tack off.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:08 AM
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Thank You for giving a little more clarification. If you've painted cars in the past without a problem, something has changed...The only thing that has changed from what I've read in your posts is the paint. When you strained each different material, did any of these spec show up in the strainer? If it's a paint related problem, I would think it would show up in the strainer as well. If the strainer is clean, then something happened from strained the material to application. I could see one product in a paint line go bad...but all three would be a first for me, that's why I asked if there was a common additive.

Just to make mention, I understand that the material you have has just recently been purchased...but, we don't know how long it sat on Summit's self. I've gone into paint jobber's store and found material way in the back on a shelf that had produced over 8 years earlier...paint material should be rotated like a perishable in a grocery store...but is something that is often overlooked.

Ray
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:13 AM
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Every time I have ever seen the "grains of sand" look it was bad hardener. But those bounty paper towels, yeow baby, there is nothing worse than paper towels for that very important step, they leave all kids of stuff, they fall apart at a very small level to completely collapsing, there is no way I would ever use any home paper towel for wax and grease remover prior to paint. There are throw away towels made for this work, pick them up at your paintstore. We are talking a lint free towel made for paint prep.

I am not saying this is your problem having not see a photo but your description doesn't sound like it. This is just a side note, leave the bounty in the kitchen for cleaning up spills on the counter.

Brian
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:53 PM
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also ,turn the fan on for about an hour before you paint,this will get out any loose dust or dirt,leave it on while your painting and only turn it off after yiour done 30 min to an hour, after the paint has tacked up..once you turn that fan off the dust will start settling on the car again...
Since you got the same results with a brush it can only be two things #1 dust settling in the paint (if its not already there because it wasnt tacked) or #2 the paint itself.Try painting something and putting it in a box or something to keep any dust off it ,that'll tell you if its the paint or a dusty air problem but those paper towels and no tacking is probably 90% of the whole problem...I forgot to tack one last week and had the same trouble, the minute I got the first coat on I realized what I had done..its hard to believe there would be so much dust on a car you just wiped and preped.I waited a day , resanded it and everything was fine..If something like this happens while painting a car STOP if you keep going it'll only get worse and cost more...let it cure resand it and give it a good tack and blow...

Last edited by deadbodyman; 03-29-2013 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 03-30-2013, 06:59 AM
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What you should do next is try a different brand of paint. Get a pint of basecoat and some clear from another supplier. maybe a buddy with a body shop can pour you off some basecoat, clearcoat and hardener for the clearcoat. just a little will work. Then see if it happens again.
This way you know if its your material or something in the shop.
Sounds like bad hardener to me. hardener is fussy stuff. It can go bad fast sometimes, especially when its high humidity. And always replace the cap immediately after pouring it. Never let it sit around without the cap tightly on the container, not even for a few minutes.
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Old 03-30-2013, 07:01 AM
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And lose the Bounty towels. get a box of good quality wiping towels from your local auto body supply. The ones I get are $14 for a box of 350 and they last a while.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoAnnBortles View Post
What you should do next is try a different brand of paint. Get a pint of basecoat and some clear from another supplier. maybe a buddy with a body shop can pour you off some basecoat, clearcoat and hardener for the clearcoat. just a little will work. Then see if it happens again.
This way you know if its your material or something in the shop.
Sounds like bad hardener to me. hardener is fussy stuff. It can go bad fast sometimes, especially when its high humidity. And always replace the cap immediately after pouring it. Never let it sit around without the cap tightly on the container, not even for a few minutes.
""The sand in the paint look appears with epoxy primer, primer sealer, and paint""

Now you have me confused, base don't have hardener? Why should he buy another brand?
Epoxy cures totally different then a 2K sealer or SS or clear coat if activator goes bad it will not seed, just not cure right.

If its doing it to all four items and he said all the items were new, it would be almost impossible for all to be bad?

Plain as day at this point, it is compressor or paper towels and from what he posted can't see how it could be anything else.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK View Post
""The sand in the paint look appears with epoxy primer, primer sealer, and paint""

Now you have me confused, base don't have hardener? Why should he buy another brand?
Epoxy cures totally different then a 2K sealer or SS or clear coat if activator goes bad it will not seed, just not cure right.

If its doing it to all four items and he said all the items were new, it would be almost impossible for all to be bad?

Plain as day at this point, it is compressor or paper towels and from what he posted can't see how it could be anything else.
I'm just saying to try a little of the whatever same product he using whether it be single stage or basecoat clearcoat, only using another brand. That way he can see if the problem is the paint or something else.
If it were contamination from the air lines or compressor, it would mostly likely appear as fisheyes. I know this as in 33 years of painting, I've had many different situations of contamination over the years.
And even if contaminants were left on the parts, would the surface be looking all rough and gritty?
I could be wrong, but i was just trying to make a simple suggestion suggestion to find a quick solution to the problem. If the issue is not paint related, that is the quickest and easist way to find out for sure.
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Old 03-30-2013, 01:21 PM
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Update on the sandy finish problem.

Ok, I am so lucky to have you guys help me with this problem. Here is an update.

I took a lot of photos and none of them showed the problem I was having. I just could not duplicte in a picture what my eyes were seeing with a cheap camera.

I did some more test panels. The body shop where I can get the wipes is closed until monday so I thought I would do three seperate panels by wet sanding with dawn soap and water, scrub down with dawn soap, and then rinse with water. I used 413Q 3M 320 wet or dry sandpaper to sand the panels down, and rinsed off with a hose. Never touched any of it with a towel, but the last time I cleaned the mixing container I used laquer thinner and a paper towel so that might have an effect on it. I used just the paint this time and preped and sprayed a fileing cabinet at a different location, a trim panel off the car, and one of my 2X2 sheet metal pieces I painted before. I did wipe each down with the tack cloth.

I did get less trash in the paint but I still have tiny little craters in the paint. It looks a little different than before. Looks more like fish eyes this time instead of sand sprinkled in the finish.

Also tried brush painting the paint with no reducer in it and still had the same problem. Small craters.

The body supply shop will be open monday. I will get those wipes you were telling me about, use some of the other cleaners and experiment some more to try and locate the problem. Will try to get some other paint as well.

Thanks so much for all the help. I plan to use each idea presented and some of my own until I find the problem.
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