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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-12-2011, 11:37 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
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That may well be the case for the application you mention. It's not routine to lubricate car or light truck wheel studs/nuts- at least not in anything published by the OM's that I've ever seen.

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Old 05-12-2011, 12:14 PM
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I just went out this AM and did the anti seize lube on those lugs - what a difference. The torque values are 100 to 120 lb ft - I did 100 which is what they have always been. I went around each of the wheels' 6 lug nuts at least 4 times after the initial "click" which meant that each was tightened 5-6 times( X 24, a heluva lot of times). I'll check them after the first outing.

I did learn a couple of things doing the axle change out. Most important is that to achieve a good torque value, you need to do at least 2 or 3 times around U-bolts to repeat the readings. The next most important was a personal thing - I'm just not as young as I was even last year and those 160# each, 89" long axles, are freakin' heavy especially when all you can use under a travel trailer are your arm and shoulder muscles, then add some 80# wheels and 'E' rated tires and I ended up whooped (slept well tho )

This is what I did the axle change on - 35' w/3 slides:

Dave W
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Old 05-12-2011, 11:18 PM
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Wow that's a big trailer!
Nice one; I could live in that full time
with satellite TV and a microwave.

I think the torque values are supposed to be
reduced by 10% if a lube is used.

My arm muscles are calibrated now so that I
can torque by 'feel'. After tightening the lugs
with a 4-way, I check one with a torque wrench
at it's always very near the correct torque.

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but very important
to tighten wheel lugs in a star pattern.
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Old 05-13-2011, 02:03 AM
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I was in a repair shop 1 time a few years ago, and an older gentlemen had asked the tech to use anti seize on the lugs after his tire rotation.. The tech told him that he could not set the correct torque angle on the lugnuts with any lube.. Then I watched thru the window as the guy rapped the lugs on with an Impact and no torque stick ( as accurate as they arn't ).... Yep I'v never been back, and I was only having tires put on
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2011, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt167
I was in a repair shop 1 time a few years ago, and an older gentlemen had asked the tech to use anti seize on the lugs after his tire rotation.. The tech told him that he could not set the correct torque angle on the lugnuts with any lube.. Then I watched thru the window as the guy rapped the lugs on with an Impact and no torque stick ( as accurate as they arn't ).... Yep I'v never been back, and I was only having tires put on

Matt
I know what you mean I busted a heavy duty 4 way after some idiot used a air gun to install some tires for me and I had a flat. I called the shop owner and work him up to come/send some one to get that thing off. Trust me an't happened again I now watch the shop boys and make them use a hand tool. Now that the state has started spraying the bridges and roads with the salt brine or what ever it IS lube might not be a bad idea. Until the state started that they was no need in my neck of the woods.

OLDROD
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Old 05-13-2011, 01:48 PM
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The thing about all this is that the small size of the studs and nuts means there is no way that simply over tightening them is going to make them too tight to remove, I mean the things would break way before they got so tight they could not be removed even with hand tools. What is happening when they are over tightened is that the soft (yes they are soft) studs and usually the taper seat on the wheels and lug nuts will gall causing them to literally weld together. It does not take a lot of over torque to do this and in fact it does not take a lot of over torque to break the stud so it is far more than just a problem with them being overly tight. Even if they are properly torqued open end nuts, as opposed to Acorn nuts, tend to seize from exposure to the elements especially road salt, a hub cap helps with this problem but is no guarantee. Anti Seize will prevent these problems and even a small amount of oil or grease works nearly as well and the nuts will usually come off easily even if over tightened. Lubing or Anti Seize will not cause a properly torqued wheel to fall off for the same reason lubed engine bolts do not cause the engine to fall apart, this has been done on millions of wheels over many years and if nuts backing off was a problem it would be a well known fact. I know that no one here has said anything about this causing a problem with wheels coming off but it has been a common argument in the past despite the lack of evidence.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2011, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
The thing about all this is that the small size of the studs and nuts means there is no way that simply over tightening them is going to make them too tight to remove, I mean the things would break way before they got so tight they could not be removed even with hand tools. What is happening when they are over tightened is that the soft (yes they are soft) studs and usually the taper seat on the wheels and lug nuts will gall causing them to literally weld together. It does not take a lot of over torque to do this and in fact it does not take a lot of over torque to break the stud so it is far more than just a problem with them being overly tight. Even if they are properly torqued open end nuts, as opposed to Acorn nuts, tend to seize from exposure to the elements especially road salt, a hub cap helps with this problem but is no guarantee. Anti Seize will prevent these problems and even a small amount of oil or grease works nearly as well and the nuts will usually come off easily even if over tightened. Lubing or Anti Seize will not cause a properly torqued wheel to fall off for the same reason lubed engine bolts do not cause the engine to fall apart, this has been done on millions of wheels over many years and if nuts backing off was a problem it would be a well known fact. I know that no one here has said anything about this causing a problem with wheels coming off but it has been a common argument in the past despite the lack of evidence.
I had expected to see someone claim lubing is taboo.
I am with you. I personally have 30 years experience with my own vehicles to know there is no issue.
Somewhat related...it was mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I also anti seize the all the steering joint studs, ball joint studs, FWD axle splines. u-bolts, etc. When it is time to take them apart later, life is much easier.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2011, 02:47 PM
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The guy I use to change tires for me has a torque wrench. By now, he has learned to ask me what lb ft I want them tightened to. I tell him some figure a lower as his technique with a torque wrench is poor - the wrench clicks and he is still leaning into it. I then go around and re do them myself with my good wrench once he is gone. He also has an air impact gun that is about as powerful as any I have ever seen.

The worst overtightening I personally ever worked on, even working part time as a mechanic for many years, was my son's car. He had new tires put on and a NY State inspection. He failed the inspection due to almost gone brake pads. I went to do the brakes that night and proceeded to break a Snap-on 13/16 then an S-K. I had to buy an impact socket, use my 18" breaker bar and a 5-6 foot long piece of pipe as a cheater to break them loose. I took the bill for the 2 broken sockets and the new impact socket plus 3 new lugs and nuts to the shop - of course their excuse was 'new guy' - it wasn't. Gun was just calibrated - so must be wrong - BS. Yeah, they paid, but only after some strong words by me. Last trip to them.

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Old 05-13-2011, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ownerT
I had expected to see someone claim lubing is taboo.
I am with you. I personally have 30 years experience with my own vehicles to know there is no issue.
Somewhat related...it was mentioned in an earlier reply in this thread, I also anti seize the all the steering joint studs, ball joint studs, FWD axle splines. u-bolts, etc. When it is time to take them apart later, life is much easier.

Before I posted this thread, I did a Google - the answers range from the sublime to beyond ridiculous about lubing. Interesting the answers from the ricer owners - can you say dumb??

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-13-2011, 02:57 PM
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If anything is used on the studs and nuts, care should be used that they don't roll around on the ground or in some way get grit, dirt, sand, etc. contaminating the threads or seats of the wheel and nut. I believe this could be why the normally recommended procedure is to use nothing on the clean, dry threads. Well, that, and the following passage from the 2002 Corvette GM Service Manual, page 3-97:

Quote:
Notice: A torque wrench or J39544 must be used to ensure that wheel nuts are tightened to specification. Never use lubricants or penetrating fluids on wheel stud, nuts, or mounting surfaces, as this can raise the actual torque on the nut without a corresponding torque reading on the torque wrench. Wheel nuts, studs, and mounting surfaces must be clean and dry. Failure to follow these instructions could result in wheel, nut, and/or stud damage.
So as long as you don't drive a 2002 'Vette, or read a Service Manual, you're golden!
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Old 05-13-2011, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
The worst overtightening I personally ever worked on, -proceeded to break a Snap-on 13/16 then an S-K.Dave W

That's the kind of problem I was talking about and while over tightening certainly was the cause the problem actually goes beyond that. Once those lug nuts are removed usually it is easy to see the damaged metal in the form of metal flakes and tiny "splinters" on the threads, evidence of galling is usually apparent on the lug seats also. Since these studs are so soft they tend to gall under less pressure than most common fasteners so without some sort of lube it happens all to easily.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
his technique with a torque wrench is poor - the wrench clicks and he is still leaning into it

I just don't understand why people can't understand that for a torque wrench to work properly you have to stop when it says STOP!

I had so much problem with the guys at my shop with this that I had to take serious steps to make them do it right, some of the settings were critical and I had to pay for mistakes! We used click type wrenches mostly and I simply could not get most of those guys to understand that when that wrench clicks you DO NOT give it an extra tug! I honestly think that probably most people, even some pro mechanics that should know better, will give the wrench and extra tug or a few degrees of extra rotation after the wrench clicks or otherwise reaches it's setting but why? This not only over tightens the fastener by a lot more than they think but is probably the leading cause of torque wrench mis-calibration since pulling beyond the setting destroys the calibration.
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Old 05-13-2011, 03:23 PM
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Another option to putting anything actually on the threads or seats is to 'seal' them from the elements. A couple coats of a durable clear (starting light so it doesn't "wick" down the threads excessively if you were a worrier) should last for a while, renew when needed, or when the nuts are R&R'd. It'd keep rust from starting on the outside, the backside will still be somewhat vulnerable from whatever reaches down to the lugs from behind the wheel.
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Old 05-13-2011, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
If anything is used on the studs and nuts, care should be used that they don't roll around on the ground or in some way get grit, dirt, sand, etc. contaminating the threads or seats of the wheel and nut. I believe this could be why the normally recommended procedure is to use nothing on the clean, dry threads. Well, that, and the following passage from the 2002 Corvette GM Service Manual, page 3-97:!

Any fastener has a lubed and a dry torque value and that is what that refers to, not that the lube itself is a problem just that standard torque values for a dry stud will be too high if a lube is used. Basically when using lube it is a good idea to back off about 10% from the max torque setting and while 10% is a lot the lube actually makes that much difference.

Like I said earlier this has been done on millions of wheels for many years and problems from it are not apparent, in fact just the opposite seems to be true.
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Old 05-13-2011, 07:16 PM
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the commercial trucking industry is now going away from lubing the studs because guys are over torquing the lug nuts (most truck shops use a 1" impact wrench) cracking the studs or nuts, causing tires to break off later


personally at home, i use anti-seize on the studs of everything
also i use a 1/2" impact to remove tires and then put them back on with a 3/8" impact (snap-on) i don't torque any of them
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Old 05-14-2011, 07:26 AM
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For sure if a person uses the service manual specs, just as with that Vette manual, and everything else is stock such as sealed nuts (Acorn nuts) or caps over the nuts then for lube obviously is not necessary.

Of course in our hobby we would never change ANYTHING from what the factory does now would we?
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