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Old 02-02-2006, 08:02 AM
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M21 to M22 - clutch and flywheel help

Hi guys,

I am going to be purchasing a new M-22 for my 69 camaro. It currently has an M-21. It has the 10.5" clutch and flywheel set up. It is a street driven car and will never see the strip

Is the 10.5" set up fine it has about 2000 miles and works great. The company I am buying the M-22 says I should step up to the 11". But then I have to buy a new flywheel and clutch set up. I already have a lakewood bellhousing.But now I am looking at another $500.00 above the $1,800.00 for the trans which I am cutting close.

What if I just got a new 10.5" fine 26 spline clutch and pressure plate. Would that work?

If I do that do I still need to turn my existing pressure plate because of the low miles on it.

If I do decide to get a new clutch and pressure plate which brand do you recommend I have a Centerforce now.

Thanks
D
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Old 02-02-2006, 08:08 AM
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course spline

Cant you order the new m22 with a course spline? If not all you have to buy is a fine spline clutch disc.
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:26 AM
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Most M22's in the day were fine spline and yes I can get a 10 spline made but the sales guy is telling my it would be best if I switched everything over to the 26 spline. I would rather not because of the cost. He said the 26 spline is stronger. Am I going to notice a difference? The motor is putting out 390 hp and the most I will ever have is 500 hp maybe down the road. But remember this will never see the track.

But if I just get the disk don't I have to turn the flywheel and how will it mate with the pressure plate? I would love to just get a new disk. Remember this is street driven only. I wouldn't even mind just getting the pressure plate and clutch but another $300.00 for a flywheel seems like a lot when mine is perfectly fine.

Since it is street driven only should I just stick with the 10 spline?



Thanks
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Old 02-02-2006, 10:52 AM
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Why are you buying the M22?
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:20 AM
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clutch disc

All the early muncie transmission's had a crouse spline. You can just change the clutch disc. anovakind67 has a good point why change to the m22? If I was going to make a trans change I would be going to a 5spd.
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Old 02-02-2006, 11:37 AM
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My existing trans is shot and it's not original to the car and I thought for resale value an M-22 sounds better plus it is stronger. I don't want to go the 5-speed route I like the old school 4 speeds.

Even a new m-21 is around $1,400.00 - $1,600.00 so the cost isn't much more. And I don't want to buy a rebuilt unit or used one and have the same problems I already have.

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D
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Old 02-03-2006, 11:52 AM
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Go with the new aftermarket M22 I got one and it is nice a little noisy but nice.

Dave
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Old 02-03-2006, 11:54 PM
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20 years ago I broke clusters and input gears in m20s, and a cluster, mainshaft and 1st gear (at different times) in a COARSE spline m22. I never broke the splined end of the input or de-splined a clutch disc.
Launching a 3300 lb car with highway gears(3.00) will do that. Stick with the 10.5, if it works now it will again.
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Old 02-03-2006, 11:55 PM
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M-22 arn't really stronger they just have straighter cut gears. This creates less heat which is a benifit but doesn't equal strength. These transmissions were used in road racing where power levels weren't extreme but the benifit of less heat was crucial. The M-22 is also quite loud.
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Old 02-07-2006, 03:21 AM
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M22 strength

Sorry lad but the M22s ARE MUCH stronger, the gears are a great deal larger and the synchro's are about a half inch bigger diameter. There were many 2.20 first m21s made with the same size gears as m20s.
M22s were fitted to more large port BBC's than they were to lil ol 302s or LT1s. All 4 speeds, Muncie, top loader, and A833 n/p break, that's why us old blokes went auto in the 70's. All these boxes were broken 30 years ago.
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaSS350
M-22 arn't really stronger they just have straighter cut gears. This creates less heat which is a benifit but doesn't equal strength. These transmissions were used in road racing where power levels weren't extreme but the benifit of less heat was crucial. The M-22 is also quite loud.
Really the concept of straight cut gears generating less heat is just a second benefit of the real reason GM went to straight cut gears in the M22. Helical cut gears impart a rear load on the transmission case. In other words under hard acceleration helical cut gears push against the transmission rear and mid plate. Straight cut gears greatly reduce this force. Yes, the M22 was quite a bit stronger than the M20 and M21.

Vince
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Old 02-07-2006, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IanRiordan
Sorry lad but the M22s ARE MUCH stronger, the gears are a great deal larger and the synchro's are about a half inch bigger diameter.
I do not believe this to be true, as there is no part number that is specific for M22 synchros. Also there are no overhaul kits listed specifically for the M22.

Vince

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Old 02-08-2006, 12:19 AM
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M22 synchros

I thought there was no difference too, but when it came time to o/haul my first ROCK CRUSHER I ordered a standard bearing kit and synchros. I was young, uninformed and thought I had a c/r m21 with a bad input bearing.
I couldn't use the synchros supplied, took them back to pos with a gear
promptly recieved a history lesson in muncies.
Most of the pro stock and
m/p cars in OZ were being supplied with Liberty and genuine gears by that shop(super plus) at the time as in the late 70's few here could afford a Lenco
or Doug Nash. I went on to build many muncies and top loaders in the 80's and always kept the 2 different rings.
BTW, A friend had an outback farm I used to hunt on. He was into Buicks and claimed he could here my high winding M22 equiped road car when I turned onto his road - 7 miles across the flat!
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Old 02-08-2006, 05:33 AM
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[QUOTE=IanRiordan]I thought there was no difference too, but when it came time to o/haul my first ROCK CRUSHER I ordered a standard bearing kit and synchros. I was young, uninformed and thought I had a c/r m21 with a bad input bearing.
I couldn't use the synchros supplied, took them back to pos with a gear
promptly recieved a history lesson in muncies. [QUOTE]

The only difference in Muncie synchros is from 1963-65 which had a support shoulder. Muncies from 1966-74 had synchros without a support shoulder.

The earlier Muncies also had a smaller diameter counershaft at 7/8" compared to the later which had a 1" diameter countershaft.

A good resource on Muncie transmissions can be found at
http://www.gearzone.net/muncie.htm

Vince
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