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Old 10-11-2005, 10:41 PM
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Magic Windsor Combos?

I have been handed a challenge...and a serious challenge at that.

500 Hp from a Windsor with $2500

Can it be done?
He has a block, crank, rods and a pair of Cleveland heads.

Ok, does anybody make an intake for fitting a set of Clevland heads on a Windsor? if so which water ports are opened and which are blocked?

Or do you have any magic and dyno'ed Windsor combos? Anything over 450hp would be ok but the challenge is to make 500 Hp with $2500 { }
So I sit here and ask the ford Guru's for your help!
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Old 10-12-2005, 06:47 AM
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Cleveland heads on a windsor is the worst option you have. First the ports are too big, even the 2V heads work better with restriction plates, they are dead heavy weight, your going to need a custom made intake, custom exhaust, and its going to cost you more to make them work and flow less then what it would be if you just went out and bought a used set of aftermarket heads. Thats why no one does this anymore, there are just so many other choices when it comes to heads.
Now with that being said, I think your best choice for your money is going to ebay and getting some used parts, 2500$ isnt going to get much. Look into doing a poor mans stroker. After market cast crank which strokes out to something like 392 or so, whats nice is you can use the stock 351w rods and 302 pistons with the 1.6compression height. With a good set of heads this should put you in the 450hp range.

Ben
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Old 10-12-2005, 09:46 AM
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get a good set of heads and a solid cam. Shoot for 10:1 compression and forget about an idle. It can be done fairly easily, but the problem is that you'lll give up a lot of low end. Tunnel ram intake will help too, or atlast a good single plane.
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Old 10-12-2005, 10:30 AM
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Making the 500hp isn't a problem with $2500, making it dependable is. Think about it.

Now with all that being said.......... stay away from the Cleveland heads on a Windsor block, too much fabricating and the ports aren't sized right anyway. IMO I'd look at trying to find a set of used 351N heads (new is like $315ea bare), you only need to flow about 250cfm and they're pretty much a bolt on, stock they flow like 235-240, .030 over 351 with forged flat tops, a solid lifter cam somewhere in the 240/250 @.05 range and .550+ or so lift, I'd say go roller but then the $$ goes up quite a bit, 750 Holley or Demon on a single plane intake, keep it under 10:1 compression unless he's into racing gas or octane boosters all the time. With the compession around 10:1 you'll be in the 450hp range bumping it to 12:1 by cutting the decks and chambers you'll get close to 490hp. In reality it's pretty much standard circle track stuff. Motor should pull great from 3500-6500.
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Old 10-12-2005, 12:25 PM
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Not sure what the power level was or how reliable it was. The company I used to work out helped sponsor a modified figure 8 car. They used a 351 block bored .30 over, had the crank turned down to use they used I6 rods (not sure why think it was to get a cheap longer rods), some FRPP heads, big single plane intake and carb. The company spend a total of 2300 in the project.
I also think you could find some stroker kits in that price range.
Or you could just do a good rebuild and throw a nitrous kit on it.

Edit* the reason I mentioned the figure 8 combo is two fold. A. it would pull away from 500+hp SBC in the straightaways. B. Hopefully someone else knows this combo and can share the information.
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Old 10-12-2005, 02:21 PM
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As far as I am concerned

These guys know the ford cams..Call em and tell them what you are doing and they will grind a cam for you to fit your app when you are doing the ford engine..

My budget looks like this..
All the parts and machine work to prepare the block and heads is about 1600..that is on my block and heads..and I do the assembly of the engine..that is a complete long block with a hot hyd cam and lifters..then I have to figure on the cost of the performer RPM air gap and carb..

list on the carb and manifold is about 650 and a dizzy I can get for about 150.00

I can figure right at 2400 for my engine..Now My machinst and I have only been doing thse since the 60's and we don't know everything yet..but then I believe we will be getting 350-375 Hp out of one of these 302 engines when we are done..

To keep the budget in order I am using Stock ford heads and doing some of our ole guys tricks with some larger valves..trimming the valve guides for clearance with high lift cams and cleaning the ports..

Yeah I would say a fellow can build a good motor for the 2400 provided he does some shopping and sticks with a flat tappet cam..if you go roller and gear drive and exotic rocker arms it is going to cost more..It is also going to cost a bunch more if one wants a 9000 RPM motor as then you will need to have the exotic valve train and a roller cam as well as some very serious heads to get to that point..

The kind of combo that we build takes some serious money to beat..

OMT
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:14 PM
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Well if it were me I would sell the Cleavland heads and shop around for some good used tfs or afr's. With those heads,air gap intake, good holley, and a custom cam and 10.1 compression you can easily be there.
I think it was hot rod that did a build on a 5.0 with stock cam and afr's,air gap intake,650 dp. It made almost 400 with the stock cam...
You should have no problem with the build..
Good luck.
Also check around for used heads as they can be found somewhat cheap.
Here is a good place to look for used parts..

http://www.corral.net/main.html
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Old 10-12-2005, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engineczar
Making the 500hp isn't a problem with $2500, making it dependable is. Think about it.
That's what I told him before I wrote this thread.
also I figured around $1500 for the bottom and $1000 for the top to keep it alive but then told him it would probably make 450 hp. I asked if we could raise the # to $3000 and he said no Well the challange has been made....and with the help of Hotrodders we may make it happen. I'll get back on this one in about a month and a half and report the findings or lack there-of! As it stands more suggestions and tips are very welcome, thanks!
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Old 10-12-2005, 11:24 PM
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If you're going for 500 out of 351 cubes you have to spin it. So C heads have RPM ports. This ain't no street engine at 1.43

A bunch of magazines have done articles about it. below.

Real "factory made" intakes for 351W, Cleveland head conversions.

Bush Performance Engines
(479) 646-9108
4521 S 16th St
Fort Smith, AR 72901

http://www.mustangandfords.com/techa...88/index5.html

http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/30220/

This is the original stuff that Gary Roughley from Moffett, OK tooled up about 14 years ago.
x




check out www.readershotrods.com

Last edited by xntrik; 10-12-2005 at 11:54 PM.
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Old 10-13-2005, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OneMoreTime
These guys know

I can figure right at 2400 for my engine..Now My machinst and I have only been doing thse since the 60's and we don't know everything yet..but then I believe we will be getting 350-375 Hp out of one of these 302 engines when we are done..
The kind of combo that we build takes some serious money to beat..

OMT

http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/28898/ 400 hp with stock ported cast iron heads

http://www.jason.fletcher.net/tech/sherman/400pg1.jpg 400 hp with stock ported cast iron heads

Last edited by xntrik; 10-13-2005 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 10-13-2005, 02:31 AM
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Very interesting

I thought it was very interesting about using the clevland 2v heads myself..I just may do some further checking to see if the price of that manifold is doable in my budget and check with my machinst to see if he feels up to making those mods to adapt the cleveland heads work on my block..

Since I already have the heads and specially the 2v heads are quite common in the wrecking yards this is a mod that makes some sense on a budget..

Thanks for the tip

OMT
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Old 10-13-2005, 05:36 AM
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Intakes, pushrods etc are all available here. It's an off the shelf swap, but if I were into Fords I'd do a Dart iron head '51w @ 7500(12:1, solid flat tappet), cheap, nasty and doable.
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Old 10-13-2005, 06:15 AM
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Spinning a windsor to 7500 is probably not the best of idea's if you want to keep any type of reliability. They have a 3" main journal. Think of it like this the same bearing speed a 302 see's at 6500rpm you see at 4500. The rule of thumb for streetablilty is keep a windsor under 6500.
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:04 AM
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Here's a little more about the C and M engines and their heads that adapt to the W.

http://www.projectbronco.com/Technic...the_rumors.htm

http://home.earthlink.net/~bubbaf250/
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:39 AM
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There is a main spacer kit that will allow the installation of a C crank into the W.

The W oiling system is vastly superior to the C.

The use of the intake spacers will allow any C intake useage on a CLEVOR.

A CLEVOR is an ideal engine for the street.
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