Manifold and engine build advice needed!!!! - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 06:27 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Manifold and engine build advice needed!!!!

I just purchased a 1969 Firebird convertible that is suppose to be matching numbers. I really wanted the car and for the price even if it isn't numbers matching it is a decent deal. The problem is that it came with a tri-power setup on it. It isn't hooked up right either. It starts right up but then will stall out. Problem is that the middle 2 bbl carb is hooked up but the other two don't have any linkages hooked up to it. They are also choked carbs which I am told is wrong and they shouldn't be choked.

I had the man send me the original manifold and I received it yesterday. It is rusted through and through but it still seems solid. I am also not an engine guy at all, so I don't want to have to be working on this thing all the time to keep the carbs tuned. However, I am not sure what it really takes to do this or how often I would have to worry about it.

So my questions are:
1. How do I clean the original manifold and keep it from rusting again? I assume I have it acid dipped or something.
2. Should I swap out the manifolds?
3. How hard is it to change them, simple unbolting and a new gasket?
4. Also should the engine be gone through?


I hate to waste the money if not needed because I have another project I am trying to finish up. I am trying to do one project at a time and just want to get this going so I can enjoy it and start restoring it in a couple years or so.

I also would like to say that I like to do work myself to save money but I don't want to screw it up either. If it is really technical I will have an expert take care of it. I also want good power and would like to be able to at least do a spin the tires and do a burn out. The car is an automatic so I can't simply dump the clutch. Otherwise beyond that I want some reliability.

Hope this is enough information and if you need more please ask.

Thanks,

SAM

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 07:45 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 29
Posts: 8,684
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 281 Times in 261 Posts
1. How do I clean the original manifold and keep it from rusting again? I assume I have it acid dipped or something.

A good sand/media blasting can probably take care of it, then paint it or atleast cover it in spray graphite or something simmilar to prevent rust.


2. Should I swap out the manifolds?

That's personal preference, I'm not sure I understand your dilemna entirely, sound slike a carb problem not a manifold.

3. How hard is it to change them, simple unbolting and a new gasket?

pretty much- plus a few lines, a manifold can be swapped in a few hours, but since its your first go I'd set aside an entire afternoon.

4. Also should the engine be gone through?

It should atleast be tested, compression test, check the plugs, check the ignition, oil pressure across the board, A/F ratio across the board, and vacuum at idle. If all of those come abck good then there is no reason to rebuild your engine, unless you want to for better performance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 08:23 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for the reply,

Quote:
2. Should I swap out the manifolds?

That's personal preference, I'm not sure I understand your dilemma entirely, sound like a carb problem not a manifold.
My dilemma is that I am not familiar with Tri-power. Are they really as tricky as I have been told? I mean they look cool but do they make that much of a difference if everything else is stock and do they require a lot of tweaking?

As far as the rust: I can blast it but it is on the inside of the tubes or ports as well. I wouldn't be able to get it all with my blaster. Please see attached pic's.

Lastly, should the manifold have the two breaks in the metal on the one side? I included a pic for reference.

Thanks,

SAM

PS:

I have included pic's as attachments I just can't figure out how to get them in the actual post where I want them. I can't seem to locate the darn command line to enter in the [IMG] area.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Manifold from the 69 Firebird 001.jpg
Views:	64
Size:	63.9 KB
ID:	39419   Click image for larger version

Name:	Manifold from the 69 Firebird 002.jpg
Views:	54
Size:	44.1 KB
ID:	39420   Click image for larger version

Name:	Manifold from the 69 Firebird 003.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	38.5 KB
ID:	39421  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 08:34 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by off2wildblue
I am also not an engine guy at all *SNIP* just want to get this going so I can enjoy it and start restoring it in a couple years or so.
Provided that the engine checks out OK, if it were me in your position, I would remove the tri-power for now and install the stock manifold (2- or 4-barrel?) with a compatible carb of your choice.

Hopefully, the seller will include a carb w/the intake. But if not, a Q-Jet or Holley 1850 600 CFM vacuum 2'ndary carb will work. An Edelbrock Performer carb (and intake, for that matter) is also an option. A "square-bore" carb (as opposed to the Q-Jet's "spread-bore") will require an adaptor to fit a Q-Jet's spread-bore intake bolt pattern, and will also require adapting the carb and tranny linkage to fit and work correctly.

If you go w/an aftermarket intake, I would choose an Edelbrock RPM, not the Performer- unless hood clearance is an issue (this will need to be measured, if using an aftermarket intake and carb).

On a 1-10 scale, this all is a solid 7.5 in difficulty. You will need to do (or farm out) the following:
  • R&R the intake and carb.
  • Either tune or rebuild and then tune a carburetor.
  • Hook up the choke (if used), the throttle linkage and kick-down linkage for the tranny.
If you take rebuilding the carb out of the equation, it drops to an easy 4, IMO. Nothing the average guy can't accomplish, given that he has tools, a place to work, time and patience.

Your new car will probably need to be tuned up- plugs, cap and rotor, wires, points (if it still has a points-type distributor) and etc.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 08:44 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by off2wildblue
I am not familiar with Tri-power. Are they really as tricky as I have been told? I mean they look cool but do they make that much of a difference if everything else is stock and do they require a lot of tweaking?
Setting them up is a pain- don't let anyone tell you different.

You have an additional difficulty in that the carbs are not tri-power carbs in the first place.

There are carbs that can be bought as a set ($1200) for three, or kits available to convert the standard 2-bbl. carbs into replica tri-power carbs. This is the route I would take, if I were going w/a tri-power.

As for performance on a stock engine- there is zero advantage in using tri-power over a Q-Jet, IMO.

I see now that you have a 2-bbl. intake. I'd just get a 2GV (divorced choke- that's what's pictured in one of your images. It's where the thermostat mounts) carb and run the car w/it.

Quote:
As far as the rust: I can blast it but it is on the inside of the tubes or ports as well. I wouldn't be able to get it all with my blaster. Please see attached pic's.
You can send it out to be dipped or use naval jelly, etc. to destroy what rust you can't get to.

Quote:
Lastly, should the manifold have the two breaks in the metal on the one side? I included a pic for reference.
Won't hurt a thing. Sometimes, Pontiac guys even cut the water crossover from the rest of the intake. It's fine, though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 09:57 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well, since I really need to check on all the other parts of the motor it would most likely be in my best interest to have a qualified tech get it checked out the first time.

So can I use this manifold with a four barrel? This is how ignorant I am. I didn't know if it needed four holes in the top.

Also, I went to look at the carbs. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HLY-65-1850/ What is the advantage or disadvantage of the square bore holes?

Also, do you have a model number for the Q-jet? So many to look at.

Finally, should it be able to do at least do a mild burn out? I'm not sure how much the rear end and the tranny have to do with this. I don't care much about top end but if you can at least spin the tires you look cool to my middle and high school kids. I know you can relate to that. Plus a muscle car that can't burn out isn't really a muscle car is it?

Thanks for your patience. I am learning as much as I can about this stuff but it just takes awhile. My Dad was never into this stuff so I didn't get that vital instruction as a kid. I am trying to learn this stuff now with my son so he will be more knowledgeable than I am at my age. I have been doing body/paint for the past year so now I am looking at the basics for engines and mechanicals.

Thanks again,

SAM
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 10:42 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Your intake is only for a 2-bbl. carb. There are adapters for putting a 4-bbl. carb on a 2-bbl. intake and vice versa, but they are no good at all.

If it were me, I would have no problem putting a 2-bbl. carb on your manifold. and running it like that. I would simply use the carb that's currently hooked up on the tri-power manifold. Install it onto the 2-bbl. intake after it's cleaned up. That way, you will spend less and the linkages will likely fit and the whole thing will be simplified.

While you are driving (and enjoying) the car w/the 2-bbl. set-up, work on getting the parts together for a swap to a 4-bbl. set-up.

For a 4-bbl. swap, you have the choice of:

An OEM cast iron intake w/a Q-Jet. This is a GOOD set-up, only real drawback is the weight;

an aftermarket aluminum intake w/either a Q-Jet (my choice) or a square bore carb; OR:

fixing up the tri-power, after determining exactly what you have- there were numerous tri-power intakes used through the years, as well as several different size and equipped carbs.

AFA "burnouts", and other illegal "show of speed" (that's what the ticket was written as, when I was a teen), a word of advice: Burnouts are for one thing- and that's heating up the tire compound and cleaning the surface before you drag race at the TRACK.

Or, do as I say, not as I do! lol
Buzz kill, I know.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 11:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: utah
Posts: 416
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I wish I were cursed with a tri-power setup.. Whatever you do, dont get rid of the tri-power parts IF it was original equipment, keep them in a box in a dark room or something as long as you own the car.

If it were me I would work on it until it suited my desire, but I am a tinkerer by nature, challenges like that are like air to me..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 11:52 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 65smallblock
I wish I were cursed with a tri-power setup.. Whatever you do, dont get rid of the tri-power parts IF it was original equipment, keep them in a box in a dark room or something as long as you own the car.
Nice "problem" to have, I agree.

The last Pontiac Tri-Power was '66, IIRC.

His 2-bbl. intake if correct for '68-'69 should be cast # 9790418 (I'm not sure on this, though).

The 3 most likely tri-power intakes are the (last three numbers of the casting number): '64- #088; '65- #818; '66- #898.

The '64 and '65 tri-power intakes have the end carb holes larger diameter than the center. The '66 intake has all large holes, center carb included.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 12:37 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I just looked at what the PO says is the original manifold to my 350.

It has the numbers #9784233. I think it is correct. I Googled the "9784233, manifold" and found this:http://books.google.com/books?id=KD2...esult&resnum=6
Is this the original? As far as the tri power, it is not orginal to the car.

I tried to get some numbers off the manifold on the tri-power. It looks like: 9782898. It also says "Firing Croer" with the numbers 1843572 or 18436572 pic is attached. On Google for that one I found out it is a 1966 Pontiac motor. http://www.pontiacparadise.com/parts...-manifolds.php It is on this page.

Pic's attached of the motor installed now with the tri-power.

So basically to get it to road worthy condition could I just pull the manifold off change the gasket, mount a new gasket and put the carb on top of that? Sounds way too simple. Then if I want to upgrade later I can add a new four barrel manifold and four barrel carb and go from there?

SAM
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Tri-power Manifold from the 69 Firebird that isn't original 010.jpg
Views:	45
Size:	67.0 KB
ID:	39433   Click image for larger version

Name:	Tri-power Manifold from the 69 Firebird that isn't original 011.jpg
Views:	43
Size:	68.1 KB
ID:	39434   Click image for larger version

Name:	Tri-power Manifold from the 69 Firebird that isn't original 003.jpg
Views:	40
Size:	58.6 KB
ID:	39435  

Last edited by off2wildblue; 07-14-2009 at 12:51 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 12:48 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
Your tri-power is the #9782898- a 1966.

The 2-bbl. is #9784233 and my info calls it a "1968 1/2". So should be right for your car. There's no exact way to figure dates, AFAIK- other than the obvious things like all the casting dates of the components must predate the build date of the car itself, but should fall within a reasonable time frame of each other and the car.

Some research by you on this will be helpful- I was never a "numbers matching" guy. I do know there's a LOT of numbers matching people and info out there, though! Have fun w/it!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 12:52 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cobalt,

Sorry I just edited my previous post and showed you what I found out. Yes I am excited about it and look forward to getting her at least up and running.

SAM
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 01:59 PM
WDCreech's Avatar
Grumpy Old Goat Herder
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Age: 70
Posts: 1,307
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 29 Times in 27 Posts
I would look for a 4bbl manifold and carburator to fit the heads that are on your engine. Preferably a Q-Jet, but an AFB would be okay too. Here's some info on Pontiac manifolds:
Exhaust Crossover Port Matchings
With Head And Manifold Use Gasket
1965-71 1965-71 1965-71
1965-71 1972-79 1972-79
1972-79 1972-79 1972-79
1972-79 1965-71 1965-71**

** Use sheet stainless steel block off plate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 06:40 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Cumming, GA
Posts: 122
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Does anyone have any recommendations on which manifold and carb setup for a 4bbl? Seems like a Q-jet is highly respected. Any model numbers to help me out for a carb and manifold setup. I look at this stuff and they all look the same.

You can PM me if you want to.

Also, as I asked before, if I have my 2 bbl manifold dipped and use the carb on the Tri-power manifold is it simply a couple gaskets and tuning the carb?

Thanks,

SAM
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2009, 07:33 PM
T-bucket23's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Engine basic condition - how to check Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 56
Posts: 5,088
Wiki Edits: 26

Thanks: 7
Thanked 102 Times in 87 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by off2wildblue
It also says "Firing Croer" with the numbers 1843572 or 18436572 pic is attached.

SAM
Thats Firing Order, most of the old manifolds had the ignition firing order stamped into them. 18436572 was a very common firing order for V8's
__________________
Artificial Intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity



Chet
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
acceleration flat spot in carb. corvettetonybone Engine 17 04-13-2013 08:31 PM
Turbo vs Supercharger - Write up!! FastChevyTruck Engine 107 02-16-2011 12:18 PM
Port or Full time vacuum cool rockin daddy Engine 129 10-05-2010 03:00 PM
this is a saver.... GM build codes TooMany2count General Rodding Tech 24 11-23-2009 09:36 AM
Cam Help black66 Engine 3 05-12-2003 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.