I've been wanting to put a 4 speed in my 78 firebird for a while and while i'm restoring it i figured i might as well do it. It has a sbc in it.
Couple of questions.
1. What parts do i need? And i mean EVERYTHING to get the job done.
2. Whats the best 4speed that will work in my car? I'm in love with the sound of the m22 rock crusher, but i'm not sure if there are better options. I want a nice smooth feeling trans.
3. Where is the best place to buy?
Call Brent @ Gears to Go Driveline LTD. Hes in Abbotsford BC (877-432-7786). He handles our Muncie stuff, T10 stuff, 833 stuff and some Tremec 5spd stuff
I ship to canada a lot and find its easier if you can find it on your side of the border already.
Tell him Nate from Auto Gear sent you
Holy crap I boogered that. Thats what I get for working from home hopped up on cold meds. Sorry guys.
The only way Id put a factory M21/M22 in a car is if I had 4.11s or 4.56s and they had to stay; otherwise, I'd use an M20 for light duty, or M22w (2.56 1st gear M22 - aftermarket gear sets only); that way I could drop my axle to 3.55s or 3.73s.
Realisically; for an M22 you better have at least a grand for the trans alone, fully refurbished ones from vendors are about twice that.
Paul Cangialosi (5speeds.com) does amazing 4speeds (in fact he literally wrote the book on it), but I think he builds them from scratch only, so you're looking at over 2grand a box.
Thanks. I have the stock highway gears now. I need to be able to cruise on the highway though so I'll pick gears that will let me do that. I've never been a fan of auto other than in trucks.
How about the super t-10? Any good? I'm only making like 350 at the crank so I don't need anything super strong
As much as I love the muncie; theres nothing wrong with a T10 if you stay sane about it. A 2.88 1st gear ST-10 is just about perfect with 3.08 cruising gears. 2.88 x 3.08 = 8.87: 1 mechanical advantage. Compare that to an M21/M22 2.20 1st; with say 3.73s (2.20 x 3.73 = 8.20:1) The only drawback is that a 2.88 T10; while being used in lots of drag cars over the years was only rated by BW at I think 350hp. Now this is 350hp for a daily driver application. There are guys who make billet midplates for the T10 as well. And, a cast iron T10 case was produced years ago.
The alternative would be a Muncie with the custom 2.98 1st gear. The gearset retails for around 800 bucks. Try kajunjon.com Hes in Texas and rebuilds Muncies and T10s
Well i'm not set on anything yet, i just think the m22's are awesome. But i'll use whatever will work best. The t-10 seems like a decent trans from what i'm reading. Jegs sells them (not sure if new or rebuilt but doesnt matter to me really) for $1600 with an assortment of gear ratio options. Here's a link Richmond 4-Speed T10 Transmissions - JEGS
Would this be a good route to go? Also, if someone could make a list of everything i need to make the change that would be really awesome. I found a 78 trans am being parted out that i can get parts from but i'd prefer new parts if abailable and affordable. But i'd like to at least get the pedals and console from it.
If it was me for about the same price as the Jeg's trannies I'd be all over that muncie on ebay. You get almost the whole thing less the pedals and tranny mount. No searching and mixing and matching involved.
I had a m22 in my 70 chevelle LS6 with a regeared 12 bolt 3.08 ratio. Hard on clutches. A bear to drive off the line smoothly. M20 would have been better. I've even run saginaw 4 gears behind a 396 with a 3.11 first gear and 3.31 12 bolt. Not a strong tranny but easier to drive. Muncie's are much stronger.
Can't buy right now. I cant do anything to the car til november and plus i'm moving and need to get rid of as much stuff as possible. This most likely wont happen til late december at best, maybe not even til next summer. I need to get it all planned out, and set enough money aside to do it. That's why i'd rather depend on a company that regularly stocks what i need. I'd hate to have everything planned up for say an m20 and end up having to go with a t-10.
Oh and by the way, the ls6 chevelle is my dream car! I'd take one of those over any lambo or ferrari any day. Definitely my favorite car ever made.
If you're a member on ebay just save the seller of that muncie in your favorite sellers list. Looks like that's his business. He could have the same set-up available by the time you're ready to buy.
Ah yes! The Ls6. Smoke em all the way into 4th gear with the original 4.10's. Enough torque that when you walked on it hard you get get the factory oil pressure idiot light to flicker cause the oil was climbing up the back of the pan. It was cranberry red, black stripes, black buckets and console. Wicked car.
That was 30 years ago!! Would be nice to go back!!
Ah yes! The Ls6. Smoke em all the way into 4th gear with the original 4.10's. Enough torque that when you walked on it hard you get get the factory oil pressure idiot light to flicker cause the oil was climbing up the back of the pan. It was cranberry red, black stripes, black buckets and console. Wicked car.
That was 30 years ago!! Would be nice to go back!!
Sorry Big!!
I guess you don't want to hear about my first foray into super high performance muscle then!
HEMI. 1967. GTX. 4 speed. 4.10 suregrip. Black on black. RPM out the wazzooo! Nothin' like the sound of them dual quads opening up. WAH!!! WAAAAHHHH!!!!! WAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!! 0 to 60 in a heartbeat!
Just good memories now!!!
Hey Bigdog, I purchased an M-20 from Scott this spring at our local Monroe Wa swap meet and he gave me a great deal with a two year warranty. I have thrashed it good behind my tunnel rammed 350. The guy is really down home honest and just a rodder like everyone else who seems to love what he does. My 1972 Nova came with a tired Saginaw that I trashed in month after setting in the 350. As far as my setup. I am using a 66 pickup cast iron bellhousing, I figure cast is better for flywheel detonation; over stock, softer aluminum though I have some weight, and its low budget. Two other pluses on that old pickup bellhousing; I don't have to shim my starter clearance ( bolts to front of housing, instead of underneath) and its big enough I am running a 12 inch truck clutch. My 14 by 70 rear tires go up in smoke in a blip of the throttle and she is fun as hell.
Hey Bigdog, I purchased an M-20 from Scott this spring at our local Monroe Wa swap meet and he gave me a great deal with a two year warranty. I have thrashed it good behind my tunnel rammed 350. The guy is really down home honest and just a rodder like everyone else who seems to love what he does. My 1972 Nova came with a tired Saginaw that I trashed in month after setting in the 350. As far as my setup. I am using a 66 pickup cast iron bellhousing, I figure cast is better for flywheel detonation; over stock, softer aluminum though I have some weight, and its low budget. Two other pluses on that old pickup bellhousing; I don't have to shim my starter clearance ( bolts to front of housing, instead of underneath) and its big enough I am running a 12 inch truck clutch. My 14 by 70 rear tires go up in smoke in a blip of the throttle and she is fun as hell.
Thanks! How's it feel shifting? I've heard the muncies are smooth as silk.
Anyone know how the t-10 shifts? I don't mind a slight bit of notchy-ness but my last car was just :smash: (audi)
You're right on the muncie being smooth as silk. Super T10 takes a bit more muscle. Not as smooth but much better than an A833 in a mopar.
Very nice speed shifting tranny too!
Im sure you already know this but I learned it the hard way.When swapping in a 4 spd from an auto ,,,dont forget to install the bearing in the back of the crank!!! This support bearing is not present for autos. That was the first muncie I broke.The next 2 were at the drag strip.They shift nice but they do not like slicks.after breaking a couple muncies and a few 12 bolts I swapped in a powerglide.If you bracket race on street tires you should be fine.
Good news! I found a guy only 10 minutes from me parting out a 77 trans am. It's way rusted out but it has a 4 speed muncie in it. I can get everything i need minus the bellhousing and clutch since its a pontiac motor. It will work right? I would assume it's all the same besides the bellhosuing and clutch. Also getting the seats, console, shifter, pedals, and drive shaft. Anyone know what tranny came in the 77 trans am?
Here's the ad 77' Trans Am parts car
Off subject, but my interior is gutted out so i'm also getting most of the interior parts. The thing i'm thinking about is that i don't have the dash in may car. A new dash is like $500 but a dash cover is only $120 (i've seen them installed, you can't even tell its there thats how good it looks). Do you think i should grab the dash from this car and buy the cover or is it worth it to just spend the $500 and get the whole new dash?
I'm also thinking about getting all the trans am stuff like the hood, scoop, front air dam, and the flares. Might even grab the front fenders if they're in good shape since mine are rusty.
it SHOULD be a T10 by then. Muncies were out of production by end of 74. The muncie and T10 are identical in a lot of respects externally. Muncies have an aluminum case, midplate and tail. T10s can be aluminum or iron. A T10 will have casting numbers like 1304-065-901. The 1304 is the tip off
Both the T10 and the muncie can use the same type of linkage for the shifter.
The SAGINAW 4speed has the reverse lever in the sidecover and uses a specific linkage.
The Saginaw is also Iron
The T10/Muncie have reverse in the tailhousing.
Another fly in the ointment is the 833 OD from new process. This is an OD truck 4spd based off the 833 chrysler box. this is aluminum and has the reverse in the sidecover as well.
Regarding the dash: I bought a cap for my 87 trans am; instead of paying a local resto place $400 to recover it. Why? Its a driver not a concours resto. The only difference with mine was the molded in speaker grills they used are different than the factory ones and if you look straight down through the windshield from the outside you can barely see my old grills underneath the new cap. Ive never had anyone notice and I can't even get a clear picture to come out.
The trick with the dash pad is ALL in the prep. the better you prep the surface of the old dash, the better it will look with the cap on. Even if you need to use a little spray foam to build up a low spot and trim it flush when it hardens...you're better off.
Slide under and get a look at the tranny. Might be a suprise if you don't. Some people don't know the difference between a munci, a T10 or a saginaw. I once saw a sag with a muncie shifter handle and the guy swore it was a muncie.
Is there anything wrong with a saginaw? It doesn't really matter to me what transmission i end up with, i just want a freakin 4 speed! haha.
It looks to me like the car has had some work done to it so it might have had a muncie swapped in...
PLENTY of guys still use the Sag. If its in good shape; no worries as long as you keep it under 350hp or keep your right foot on the straight and narrow.
Just make sure that whatever trans you get; uses the same output shaft as your cars rear yoke. It makes life a helluva lot easier.
*When you look at the trans; start with iron or aluminum
*Then go to the shifter linkage
-all the linkage in the sidecover is Sag or 833 OD
--Saginaws are Iron; 833 ODs are Aluminum
-2 linkage rods in the sidecover and 1 in tailhousing T10 or Muncie
The only problem with random T10s and Sag's is you can get some horrific 3.43: 1st gear econobox transmissions if you arent careful; but so what, at least you're on the road, and some winter when you've got the time. pull the box and rebuild it
I already have around 300hp now and i'm still planning on new aluminum heads and a cam upgrade which will put me over 350hp most likely. I don't want to have to worry about the trans and i want to be able to drive it. It's going to be a street car, but that doesn't mean i want to drive like a grandma everywhere. I want to be able to floor it a jam through gears without worry. If the saginaw can't handle this then i would rather not have one, unless i can get it super cheap and rebuild it to handle the abuse. Are parts for the saginaw readily available? Can it be build to hold more power?
Well i won't have to worry about it anyway. The transmission in the car is a muncie m22 rock crusher. Yes! Got a price of 750 if i pull it, 900 if he pulls it, for the tranny, pedals, and shifter. I have to get a bellhousing and clutch still since it has a pontiac motor and i have a chevy.
In addition to the tranny, shifter, and pedals, what else do i need to get from the car to make it work?
if its not costing extra,take the bell crank,bell crank support ,adjustment rod, cross member mount,yoke,m-22 is different,,brake light switch,dont know if that car has a neutral safety switch,reverse light switch,bell housing (for future possible trade) console.speedo collar and cable,bolts,
I'll just take anything that's attached to the transmission. Is one of those parts attached to the engine? Will it work on my chevy motor?
also do you know if the clutch is hydraulic or cable operated?
As long as it's a muncie i'm happy, but yes i'd like to know what i'm buying. I just look for the straight cut gears right?
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