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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-31-2006, 09:50 PM
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Martin Senour Crossfire - questions?

I just choked on the price of Martin Senour's Tech Base in a 2006 Dodge 'Top Bannana' gallon of paint. Jobber price - $378!!!!!

So, I made an instant decision to go with the more economical Cross Fire system BC only @ 178/Gal. Don't know if it was a good one at this point.

I'm using a buff 2K primer over black.

The tech sheet doesn't address the issue.

Questions:
Will the Cross Fire cover as well, or have more a chance for bleed through?

Do I have to lay down a base or sealer?

Will there be any issues of using the 8888 over Crossfire BC?

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Old 03-31-2006, 11:58 PM
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I use a ton of Martin Senour stuff.

To answer your questions.

No. The Crossfire will not cover as well as the Tec Base. If it is a light colored metallic or a color with allot of pearl in it then you will need several coats to acheive good coverage vs. the Tec Base. Even Still there is a significant cost savings over the Tec Base.

No. If going over 2k primer you will not need a sealer.

No. You will have no issues using the 8888 universal clear over the Crossfire.

If you are looking to save a little money I suggest using the Crossfire CC5000 clear in place of the 8888. The 15405 could be used but the CC5000 is my preference.

This is the most recent job I have done. This is Crossfire 15222 primer, HOK bases and Crossfire CC5000 clear.
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Old 04-01-2006, 12:22 AM
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Great looking paint job bloverby!!!!! Love the color choice and flame shapes.
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:16 AM
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Awesome Job!!! What color is the orange on the side? It looks really bright! Also, why HOK base and not Martin Senour? Do they not have as many bright colors or what? What little painting I have done, I used Martin Senour and crossfire and absolutely love the stuff. It seems really user friendly and I can get good results even though I havent had much experience. My only concern is that I can not find a very bright orange with them. Does the HOK work OK under the crossfire clear? Thanks and have a great day!
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:21 AM
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I Use Crossfire Quite A Bit On Overalls, I Thik It Is Pretty Good Base, I Always Put Down A White Base for yellow, reds and oranges, And Then I Have Absolutely No Problems With Coverage, I Just Sprayed A Competition Yellow In Crossfire Base , I Layed Down A White Base, And It Only Took About A Half gallon Of The YellOw, , IT Is Hard To Cover Over Grey, Or Even Buff Primer Or Sealer Sometimes, So Try The White Base Trick , Youll Thank Me, Guarunteed, Mike.
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Old 04-01-2006, 11:22 AM
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I have used the white base as a ground coat to help with coverage as well. It does negate some of the cost savings though.

The Crossfire line is designed for overall refinishing only. If you choose to use it to match a fender you are taking chances. If you paint an overall with Crossfire and have to panel match it later you can as long as you use crossfire for the match (In other words it matches itself but not the factory finish). I find that most Crossfire colors will end up being a slightly lighter shade than the original color.

Since it is designed for overalls, not every color is available in that line. You will find that the latest pearl type colors take a long time be introduced in that line. So if you see a new car on the lot with a new color chances are it will only be available in the Tec Base line.

My personal belief is that the Crossfire is just thinned down Tec Base. When you buy Tec Base you are getting allot more pigment in the can than with Crossfire. WIth Tec Base you get a can of thick paint that you add a basecoat stabilizer to (milky looking stuff /not reducer) that mixes 1:1. With crossfire you basically get 1/2 a can of thick paint that is filled the rest of the way with "basecoat fixer" and "balance solvent", to this you add regular reducer at a 2:1 ratio. My guess is that the "basecoat fixer" and "balance solvent" + reducer is what makes up the basecoat stabilizer in Tec Base (probably in different ratios to give the crossfire the thinner consistency and alter the original color to make it lighter). So essentially you are getting the paint cheaper because it has way less pigment in it. I think it is just a slick way to market a cheaper product by pulling the technology from the main line. This is JMO.

On multi colored graphic type jobs I like to use HOK because that is what it is designed for and the cost is comparable to Crossfire. I can just look at my HOK book and pick colors that I think will work together without having to reasearch 1000's of factory color chips. When an intercoat clear is needed you will be forced to mix product lines with Crossfire because they don't offer one. You have to get that from the Tec Base line to stay withing that manufacuters products and it just gets too expensive.

So for overall refinising in a factory color I generally use Crossfire Base. For panel match I use Tec Base. For full on custom I generally use HOK. I use the CC5000 clear over all the different bases.

The orange in the picture is HOK tangelo pearl. If you look in my photo album the orange Nova is done in Crossfire base that I had custom mixed using Staight CF103 mixing color with the basecoat fixer and balnce solvent added in the proper ratios by my jobber.
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Old 04-01-2006, 03:46 PM
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The orange in the picture is HOK tangelo pearl. If you look in my photo album the orange Nova is done in Crossfire base that I had custom mixed using Staight CF103 mixing color with the basecoat fixer and balnce solvent added in the proper ratios by my jobber.[/QUOTE]

That nova is gorgeous!!! It is exactly what I have looking for. Was is cheaper to have this custom mixed or buy the HOK tangelo. I have always like the tangelo but wanted to stay with martin senour. Now it sounds like I may have an option. Also, how well did the custom mix cover? Thanks for all your help!!!
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Old 04-01-2006, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloverby
My personal belief is that the Crossfire is just thinned down Tec Base. When you buy Tec Base you are getting allot more pigment in the can than with Crossfire. WIth Tec Base you get a can of thick paint that you add a basecoat stabilizer to (milky looking stuff /not reducer) that mixes 1:1. With crossfire you basically get 1/2 a can of thick paint that is filled the rest of the way with "basecoat fixer" and "balance solvent", to this you add regular reducer at a 2:1 ratio. My guess is that the "basecoat fixer" and "balance solvent" + reducer is what makes up the basecoat stabilizer in Tec Base (probably in different ratios to give the crossfire the thinner consistency and alter the original color to make it lighter). So essentially you are getting the paint cheaper because it has way less pigment in it. I think it is just a slick way to market a cheaper product by pulling the technology from the main line. This is JMO.
I am not saying you are wrong, if there is one thing I learned as a Martin Senour rep was that the manufactures of these products have a LOT of secrets, kept even from the rep.

I was with M-S when this product line came out. About two years before it was released there was talk about a new paint line that was going to REPLACE the Tec/System that makes Tec/BASE, Tec/ONE, and the like. This stysems description WAS what later became "Cross/FIRE". This "replacement" system was forgotten and never mentioned again after the first few months of hype. Long after it was forgotten, a few years later all of a sudden we get this "value line" to compete with OMNI (hardly thought of at the time of the original talk about a Tec/SYSTEM replacement but now a FORCE to reckon with).

My understanding from talking to the actual guys who develpoped it (though I admit as mentioned, there are secrets I am sure they wouldn't tell me) this was a stand alone system developed from scratch. Now, the clears and primers if I were asked to bet on, are "buy outs" made by another company like Transtar, Matrix or the like.

I was VERY impressed by the whole Cross/FIRE line. I didn't use it much but the base covered very well, the SS synthetic enamel had amazing metallic control. I thought it was a great system.

Brian
p.s. the Tec/BASE "stabilizer" used to reduce the base coat is a urethane reducer with 9850 mixing clear in it.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 04-01-2006 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 08:39 PM
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The Nova is really nice, but what color is that Camaro 427? I really like that one!

Dave
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:38 PM
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Interesting Brian.
That explains "why" it won't work with other urethane reducers.
As you know, I get "freebies" from the NAPA warehouse and I used a couple of different Dupont reducers and it would not flash right and after getting the "proper" reducer,it did just great.

Nice post on this paint. I've learned some for sure.
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Old 04-01-2006, 09:58 PM
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Martinsr, I guess I am just skeptical about products whenever marketing executives are involved. Where I work we can be running one machine with three packaging lines and be applying three different brand labels on the product coming out the other end.

Ever looked at the list of ingredients on the Martin Senour CC5000 clear / hardener / reducer and compared the CAS #'s to say the 8639 clear. (strikingly similar). My suspicion on that one is that its pretty much the same stuff w/ less hardener added to the mix to change the performance. The thing I like about the CC5000 clear is that it works perfectly without having to modify the manufactures mixing ratios. Alot of clears seem to require more than the recomended amount of reducer to get them to flow right. The CC500 doesn't. I also like the fact you don't need a seperate can of hardener (the most expensive component) to adjust for varying temperatures. You simply change the reducer selection which by the way is the same reducer you need for the color so it keeps the amount of materials you need on hand down.

The Crossfire stuff is one of those items you need to really do a full comparison on. When mixed 1 gal of Crossfire = 1 1/2 gallons sprayable. 1 gal of Tec Base mixed = 2 gallons.

From my experience it will take at least 1 more coat of Crossfire to = the coverage of the Tec Base. So I generally have to buy more Crossfire Base color than Tec Base to get the same result. Even still it prices out to a significant cost savings.

Ever notice how if you buy black Tec Base the jobber simply pours black mixing color out of 1 can and puts it in another (no other ingredients). The 8882 basecoat stablizer completes the mixture. If you buy black Crossfire you get black mixing color + "balance solvent and basecoat fixer". The Crossfire reducer completes the mixture.

When picking the color for the nova I just looked at straight orange mixing colors (didn't want the brown added like hugger orange). My jobber gave me a few ounces of CF102 and CF103 to spray a test panel. I asked him if I needed to add anything to it to make it a base he said he didn't think so. I mixed these samples with crossfire reducer and sprayed them. They covered instantly and took forever to dry. ( I knew something was missing). They did however work for test panels to pick a color. When I told my jobber that the CF103 was what I wanted he wasn't sure how to mix it. I got him to pull up the formula for a red that had no other colors in it as well as black. He used that formula with the CF103 substituted + the basecoat fixer and balance solvent. Worked like a charm. Just out of curiousity I used some of the original sample mixing colors mixed with 8882 to spray a test panel and it seemed to me to spray just like Tec Base. The new crossfire mixture seemed to not cover as well as the 8882 mixture. That is where my suspicions come from. Hey these are just observations from a user. I may be completely off base but it was enough to make me wonder.

Bottom line is on an overall where you are picking a factory color the Crossfire Base is tough to beat for the money. At least I like it and really like my jobber.
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:00 PM
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The camaro is HOK cinnamon pearl. PBC42 maybe? Clear is Crossfire CC5000


This one is 100% Crossfire. Primer to Clear.


This one is Tec Base.

Last edited by bloverby; 04-01-2006 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:17 PM
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bloverby NICE paint work and thanks for the insite.
My wife works at the Distrubition warehouse and they drop/screw up stuff all the time so, I get it for nothing most times but I need the reducers or cat's and have to buy them. It is a good line and IF I need something painted from a complete standpoint,I'll use it. Your information has helped a LOT reguarding their products.
Thanks,Mike.
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Old 04-01-2006, 10:45 PM
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I assume she only gets to bring you the damaged mixing components and you are on your own as to how to make a base out of it. Does the paint ship out of the same wharehouse as the rest of the parts or is that a seperate outfit being its really Sherwin Williams?
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Old 04-02-2006, 08:35 PM
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They have an inhouse paint dept so it could be anything from a bent can of Crossfire etching primer to Tech base paint. I got a gal. of Ford Blue in MS the other day along with a gal. of lightweight filler that got a hole punched in the bottom. Microsphere's Woohoooo..... Got a gal of CUZ too. Actually not bad stuff but it's pain to sand. But for free,I ain't *****in.
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