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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2004, 01:04 AM
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HMMM!!!
How far from the panel were you spraying??? Were you afraid of getting runs on the vertical surfaces? If it was prepped alike on both horizontal and vertical surfaces, then that rules out any mechanical adhesion questions. Had you sanded it with too fine a grit paper, it could cause problems, but I've sanded with as fine as 1200 grit and not had a problem, but prefer to use no finer than 600 and not coarser than 400, depending on the situation. Did you only apply once the wax and grease remover?? One time over the surface with that and immediate drying with a clean cloth should do the trick. This is one time that more is definitely not better. Too many times over the surface with wax and grease remover will build up a film over the primer and cause problems.
I'm not familiar with the M-S line, so I will take MARTINSR's word on it that the solvent was too fast for your conditions. You CAN get by with faster solvents when not painting in a booth, as the air movement greatly increases the dry times, but these are also increased with heat and humidity. Painting in 110 degree conditions is a real treat, eh!! Since you got adhesion on the horizontal panels and not on the vertical, I can only assume that the material was nearly dry before it hit the panel. This would also contribute to the orange peel factor. If you layed your first coat of clear dry, as a tack coat (always a bad choice) then I can almost guarantee it was too dry when it hit the panel and caused a severe orange peel condition as well as the lack of adhesion. On the horizontal surfaces, you get more material transfer, thus a wetter coat and a lesser chance of dry spraying. If you take MARTINSR's advice and use the proper solvent and get your gun adjusted, you should be able to spray it super wet without fear of runs. We all spray differently, but most of the time I'm only 4-6 inches off the panel when spraying clear and I try to nail that very fine line between orange peel and run. Sometimes, you get a slight bit of peel (better than the factory paint jobs) and other times you get a little heavy and get a slight sag, but practice will teach you where that fine line is. I'm a painter in a collision shop, so I get my daily dose of practice. Boy, Is it getting old, too!!!
Banging on metal is so much easier!!! Painting is a very frustrating job at times. Fortunately, I've been at it for so long, I rarely have anything crop up that I can't work out of in minutes, but that just comes with experience. NOBODY can lay down a PERFECT paint job. There's no such thing. If anyone tells you different, you just met a liar!! I would suggest buying some super cheap clear and grabbing a couple hoods from the local body shop and get to practicing everyday. This is what will make you better.
Did you ever look up Carl Brunson?? The guy is one of the best. Who knows, maybe he needs someone to sweep his floors and shoot some primer?? Just another suggestion. Last I knew, he was still in Vegas.

Randy Ferguson
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2004, 08:33 AM
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I think you are right Randy, it is a simple case of the horizontal surfaces staying wetter and getting better adhesion. I will also put money on it these areas experianced some serious dieback.

Even experianced painters will apply more or less paint on different areas of the car They shouldn't, but unless it is REALLY practiced to apply the same everywhere, most will slow down and watch the product hit the panel a little more on the horizontal surfaces. This creates different results. It happens at edges of panels where overlap exists, as well as the opposite were the product is to thin on places like under wheel well lips.

It is amazing how many failures will have a pattern on the car.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2004, 01:39 AM
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good advice

With guys like Randy& Martinsr to advise you you cant go wrong, they know what their talking about , pay close attention. I wish I had craftsmen like them when I started painting 40 years ago. Great job guys!!!!!
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2004, 07:09 PM
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I honestly dont know. I know I do a pretty even 50% overlap but not perfect. The thing is the base I couldent even get to lay flat. It was pretty rough as the below pic shows
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Old 07-16-2004, 07:21 PM
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eh

I always get the paint on with no streaks or anything like that. BUT! Cant seem to get it to lay the way it should. Till now I pretty much know it is wrong reducaer. The bad thing is I dont know how to tell which speed actavator M-S sells for the base and color changing paint. Ill just make sure I get the slowest. It is almost impossible for meto get a run. I hevent had one since I tried using a slow reducer for touch-ups which makes me bet it was wrong reducer. (The clear did lay better)

Also Im pretty sure it was wrong reducer because when I did touch-ups it wrinkled.

When I painted my Blazer I had to put so much clear on it just to try and get it to lay that I think the reducer would mostly evaporate before it would hit the car and it was just to much. (The clear cracked on the roof and hood im pretty sure from shrinkage) NOTE: The guy gave me meduim reducer

I let the clear flash the amount of time M-S asks andstuff like that.
But O well ill be practicing on my neighbors stuff cause he likes the way I paint and he says we will "Learn" together. Im painting his wires probably monday. He has slow reducer and stuff so I think Ill do a good job. Thanks, Chris
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2004, 08:49 PM
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Chris,

Why do you refuse to answer my questions??

Randy Ferguson
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2004, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Randy Ferguson
Chris,

Why do you refuse to answer my questions??

Randy Ferguson
Randy...maybe it's your southern speak?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2004, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstable
Randy...maybe it's your southern speak?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Unstable,
Did they move that Mason-Dixon line again?
Not sure where it is now!
Barry
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2004, 06:12 PM
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The question

Chris, I understood the question Randy asked and I'm in California! I'm not sure your paying attention. Maybe you should re-read, if your serious, maybe you missed something.
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Old 07-17-2004, 08:05 PM
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Randy,

Just because I was curious I did some checking on the Mason-Dixon issue...it appears that Ill' was a free state during the civil war. The true line didn't extend that far West.

There is a bunch of talk about the line splitting Illinois but there isn't anything that I can find that says the line even ran that far West.

Regardless of whether your neck of the woods is south of the line or not...I think you qualify as a southerner.
Nothing wrong with that...seems like the majority of wicked creations comes from down south...it's like the mechanical aptitude is higher the further south you go.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2004, 09:52 PM
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y'all ain't wrong der, boy. Weez a purdy intelujunt bunch uh fokes down 'ere now. I tell ya whut!

We all a buncha bad wicked dudes as yawl'd put it.

Randy
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2004, 03:27 AM
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Imm sorry Randy I dont like southern folk

Hahahaha Just kiddin Hey guys please goto to see the problems I was having with pics

http://www.a2zautoforums.com/showthr...8992#post28992

to see The polished paint and how easy the paint would pull off and Just the full project.

Sorry Randy I have been very busy juggling paint projects and running around everywhere but I love it.

I was spraying about 8 inches from the car cause I was told to dust this paint I have on but I bet the reducer was evaporating before it even hit the car and dident stick right.

Honestly unless I stay at one spot for about 4 seconds it wont run and is very hard for meto do. It was wet-sanded with 400 grit sandpaper.

I applied the wax and grease remover about 3 times before I actually painted the car.

Im actually getting a few autobody show OWNERS stopping by and wanting meto work at their shop but I want to get my license and GED before I start a career. I am doing my neighbors cars and stuff though.


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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2004, 01:28 PM
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Chris,
If you can stay in one spot for 4 seconds and not get a run, you have a horribly ill adjusted paint gun, or you are way more than 8" from the panel. Whoever told you dust on paint is an absolute friggin' moron. You spray it wet and allow the solvent to flash before adding the next coat, which is normally a non issue on overall jobs. If you're only doing a side, ect., (spot repair) then it's an issue, but not on an overall, unless it's getting pretty cool and you have very little air movement. Quite honestly, you need more experience before you start doing this professionally. You can only get that experience by doing, so you need to practice every spare second you've got. If you're having all these problems on your own vehicles, what's to say you aren't going to have the same problems on a paying customers project. The only difference is, that when it's on your own stuff, nobody cares, but have problems with a customers vehicle and LOOK OUT!!!! They turn nutty in a heartbeat. In my nearly 18 years of painting professionally, I've had very few problems but occasionally, something will jump up and bite you, you just can't help it!

You had everything against you on your previous paint job. The solvent selection was wrong, cleaning the surface three times with wax and grease remover left a film, that had you sprayed it wet, I would almost guarantee huge amounts of fisheyes, but since you dry sprayed it, they didn't have a chance to show their ugly head. BUT, what it did cause was a lack of adhesion. The dry spraying also contributed to the clear not sticking to the base. Those solvents are there for more than just making the paint flow out of the gun better. They also aid in the merging of each successive coat. The orange peel problem is also due to improper gun set-up, spray technique, solvent selection, etc., etc.

You need to practice spraying at a point that you're right on the edge of getting a run. This will eliminate almost every bit of peel and will greatly reduce your problems. If you have to extend flash times between coats, so be it.

Just to give you an idea of how close to getting a run I always am when spraying, If I stop movement AT ALL on a vertical surface, even if only for a fraction of a second, I can be assured of a run!!

Proper gun setup and spray technique is what it takes to get excellent results, along with a deep understanding of the products you are using.

Try moving in closer to the surface, adjust your gun so that it is applying enough paint and instead of a 50% overlap, tighten it up to more like 75%. This will provide you with a wetter coat and less chance of streaking when painting colors high in metallics and pearls. I paint everything as though it's a kandy paint job, walking the entire length of the vehicle or area I'm painting. This has always given me the best results, as opposed to painting a panel or short section at a time.

Don;t take my word for it though, get out in the shop and try it.

I am hoping some of the other pro painters here will chime in and tell us how they paint. We all do it differently, so chances are we will all have a little different technique, but what truly matters is the end result. If your technique works for you and you're getting excellent results, why change.

I also hope Barry K will add a little to this from a chemists point of view.

I'm not trying to beat you up Chris, only trying to help. I was there myself when I first started out, but fortunately, I had a guy here to go to for advice. He wouldn't show me how to do anything, but he would explain it to me and tell me to go practice and try it out until I figured it out.

Randy Ferguson
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2004, 01:46 PM
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Well I can paint and everything like that. I am still learning but 9 times out of 10 I was just doing what my paint salesmen told meto do. He said just dust on the base only use enough to get coverage. THen apply the special effect paint and dust it on lightly. He said he holds his gun about 2 feet away from the paintjob and lets this stuff just fall on. Im switching paint companies cause thus far the only problem I have been having is wrong reducer and wrong information. So far the dupont specialists out here seem to know what their talking about. Thanks, CHris
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2004, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by unstable
Randy...maybe it's your southern speak?
Quote:
originally posted by BarryK
Unstable,
Did they move that Mason-Dixon line again?
Not sure where it is now!
Barry
when your in Massachusetts, everything is South.

Great thread, this is knowledge base material.
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