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unstable 07-10-2004 07:23 PM

Martin Senour Tech Sheets?
Hey guys,

I'm finally going to try painting my first car. It's a Dodge Shadow. This project is mainly a test to see how everything goes and also to make the paint on the Shadow look a little has been chipping off over the years.

Anyhow. I went to Napa and bought the paint. The guy gave me the ratios to mix and everything but no tech sheets. I checked the Martin Senour website and I can't find any tech sheets.

It appears that the guys at Napa have empty gallon containers and they fill them with the mix of I know the mix I have, but as funny as it sounds, I don't even know what KIND of paint I've got! It's great being a newb.

Randy Ferguson 07-10-2004 09:40 PM

Hi unstable,

Here you have it!!


ChrisMiddleron 07-10-2004 09:56 PM

They have their clears on their but actual paints have their own mix ratios. If you don't know the mix ratio or forgot just call em up and ask.

I know you didn't ask but im gonna say this anyways.

Their paints are pretty good I would stay away from their clears though. I have been using their clear for about 3 years now and I am going to try better things. Their clear a month down the road started to magically crack and shrink in a few places and is thick as **** so it is kinda hard to spray to lay flat.(Iv painted about 4 other cars and only my blazer cracked though) Maybe you will better results but the only way I can spray this stuff on like a mirror is if I use a hvlp, turn it up very high and spray so it is on the verge of running. It may have been the medium reducer and the paint guy selling me the wrong product for what im doing though. Other then that their paints stick and are pretty cheap (Good but cheap ) if you ask me.

One other thing is try to work in 12 hour intervals. What I mean is if you dont shoot paint/primer over an area that you sanded within about 12 hours you should rescuff.

Im still "Learning" im only 16

When I was painting my Blazer I waited a week after the car had been sanded and shot the paint over it without rescuffing. After I spent a month sanding and polishing. The paint started to peel off like latex on skin. (Ill post pictures of how easy it pulled off :drunk: :pain:

Note: Always work in 12 hour intervals and use sealer before painting

Sorry to right a novel I just would hate to see the same thing happen to someone else that happened to be painting, Chris

unstable 07-11-2004 04:09 PM

thanks guys. I'm going to give it a shot (excuse the pun) any minute's been a long two days. Can't say that I envy the guys who do this for a living...better men then I'll ever be.

MARTINSR 07-11-2004 11:31 PM

I was a Martin Senour rep for a number of years if you have any questions. Personally, I love the clears, well most of them.

ChrisMiddleron 07-12-2004 05:10 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Well I was using the high solids cc5000 and cant seem to get it to lay good without bad orange-peel

MARTINSR 07-12-2004 08:31 AM

Chris, CC5000 didn't look familiar and doing a search on the S-W site came up with nothing. Re-check the number and post it here.

The problem is with your gun set up, atomization or some other "user error" not the product, trust me. It may not be the most user friendly, or best clear but it will produce a nice finished product when used correctly.

The following is something I wrote on the subject of atomization, lets start there. It is not something I made up, this is a summery of what I was taught at the MANY classes I went to at S-W and real world shop experiance.

From the discription of what happened to your clear it was applied too heavy, too thick, period. You just can't "bomb it on" as you discribe or it will be FULL of solvents.

As far as waiting 12 hours and all that. You are right on some cases. HOWEVER you CAN NOT go by a blanket rule like that. There are MANY, MANY products where that rule is just plain wrong. Anywere from the base coat which has a SEVEN DAY window to the vinyl wash etching primer which has a four HOUR window for recoat.

You need a tech sheet on EVERY product you are using and follow those recommendations. I would have to get a more info from you on your paint peeling problem, but not rescuffing was only part of the problem, I guarantee that.


"Basics of Basics" Atomization and gun set up.
By Brian Martin

Being HVLP and low VOC products are the way the industry’s going I will be referring to them in this discussion on painting and paint guns. Most all basic issues dealing with HVLP can be applied to conventional guns, atomization is atomization. The HVLP just arrives at it differently.

The object of the spray gun is to break up the primer/sealer/paint/clear (I will call this “PSPC” from here out) into small particles and lay them in neat little rows on the panel being PSPRed. So the whole outcome rests on how well the gun is doing this. Picture the droplets of PSPC coming out of the fluid tip of the gun and then the air “slapping” them into smaller droplets.

You have two things that help you with this process, air and solvent. Solvent can mean something that is already in the PSPR from the manufacture or something the manufacture has told you to add to it. By the way, you should always mix in proper ratios as instructed in the tech sheet. The thinner (less viscosity) you get the PSPR or the more air you have at the fluid tip of the gun the more it will break up the PSPR. The target for you is getting the perfect balance needed. Too much solvent and the PSPR will have no body, fill, durability, etc. Too much air and you blow the PSPR everywhere but the car, poor adhesion, excessive texture, etc.

So, the answer is proper air supply and gun (and fluid tip) choice and how you adjust it.

With today’s high solids-low VOC (Volatile Organic Compound, you know the bad stuff that goes up into the air we breathe) products there is less solvent. And with HVLP guns there is less air at the cap to break up the PSPC, proper air supply and gun setup is more important than ever.

FIRST THINGS FIRST, your compressor and air supply.

An HVLP gun requires more VOLUME of air to operate (the V in HVLP, High Volume Low Pressure). Now you may notice that your HVLP gun is adjusted at maybe the same PSI as an old conventional gun, around 50 lbs at the gun (many HVLP guns are set at much lower though) so where is the “Low” in PSI they are talking about? It is at the actual air cap where the air and paint come out. An HVLP gun has only 10 lbs at the cap while a conventional has upwards of 50! So the VOLUME of air (CFM, Cubic Feet per Minute) is the key to proper atomization with an HVLP.

This 10 lbs I am mentioning is AT THE CAP where the air and paint comes out. It is not measurable without a special air cap that has a gauge built in to it. This air cap costs about $150.00 (and you would need a different one for every brand and model of gun you use) and is not needed to set up or tune your gun. Just looking at the droplet patterns will tell you everything you need. I only refer to it to make a point about HVLP operation.

If you have a gun that requires 15 CFM you will need a compressor and plumbing that will produce that at a very minimum. There are HVLP guns that need as little as 7.5 CFM so you can get good results even from a smaller compressor. Air supply is a complete subject by it’s self so lets assume that you have the air supply needed and move on to gun set up.

So atomization is the key, but why? Why can’t you just lay it out wet and let it “flow”, as an old painter will say. Picture a jar full of bb’s, they will represent well small, atomized droplets of PSPC. The gaps in between the bb’s is solvent. Now picture a jar filled with marbles, they will represent large, poorly atomized droplets of PSPC. The gaps in between are, you guessed it, solvent.

If you apply your PSPC in large poorly atomized droplets, what you will have is a film full of solvent. This can and will cause slow curing, shrinkage and dieback (the loss of gloss in the hours and days after application).

So, now that we have learned the need for gun set up, how do we do it? Lets start with the fluid tip choice. The newer high solids low VOC PSPC products need to be broken up more, so a smaller fluid tip is needed.
Basically you want the smallest fluid tip that will still allow you to PSPC the particular part you are PSPCing keeping the entire thing wet and in a fair amount of time. In other words a 1.0 tip would be beautiful for clearing one fender, but would be lousy to paint a complete. The application would be way to slow and the first panel would be way to flashed by the time you got around back to it. So you need to compromise, a 1.3 is a great all around tip, while a 1.5 though getting a little big, can get you by. If you read the tech sheet on the particular product you are shooting, it will have a recommendation for fluid tip size.
There are needs for other tips, for instance when shooting polyester primer you may need as big as a 2.3, but for urethanes and epoxies, the 1.3 or 1.4 will work great. If you plan on using a pressure pot or paint a bus, all bets are off and we would need to study a little bit more.

As an example of the use of a 1.3 tip I did a test once that proved the point well. I shot two panels of metal with a med solids urethane primer. One was shot with a 1.3 super high atomizing top of the line topcoat gun. The other was shot with a 1.5 (or a 1.7 I can’t remember) “hoser” primer gun. Three coats were applied and after a full cure (the one shot with the larger gun took MUCH longer to flash and cure by the way) the film thickness was measured. The one shot with the 1.3 tip was 2 tenths of a MIL thicker! The larger gun laid out the marble sized droplets full of solvent and when the solvent flashed the film shrank.

Air supply is a subject that could fill many pages by it’s self. So we are going to assume you have that covered and move on to gun set up.

You need to “tune” your gun EVERY TIME you use it just as you would tune a guitar before you perform. This is done with a very basic spray out pattern test. This very basic test tells you how your gun is atomizing and you adjust it to achieve the best atomization you can.

Lets do a spray pattern test:

Set the fan width as need (you don’t want to change it after you have “tuned” the gun). Turn out the material knob about 2 ½ turns. This is the “mixture” adjustment, kind of like the idle screw on a carburetor. The farther in it is screwed the lower the fluid to air ratio is and the smaller the droplets will be. The farther out it is, the higher the fluid to air ratio is and the larger the droplets.
Set the air pressure at the inlet to the gun to the manufactures specs. On an HVLP gun this spec is usually found on the gun and is the maximum PSI it can have while still maintaining the maximum 10 lb at the cap for legal HVLP transfer efficiency (68 %). You are now ready to do a test spray out.

Tape a piece of masking paper on the wall for the test. Hold the gun at a right angle to the wall, just as if you were going the wall. Hold the gun at a spread out hands distance (about 8” or 22cm). Pull the trigger to completely open for a split second and then close it. You want an ON-OFF wide open-completely closed in ONE movement. You should have a cigar shaped pattern with complete coverage in the center with fading coverage going away from the full coverage cigar shape in the center. The center should be fully covered without any runs. If you have runs, either you are holding the trigger too long, you are too close or the gun is simply applying too much material. In which case you need to screw in the material knob or turn the air pressure down. But most likely if you have turned the material knob out the 2 ½ turns and the air is set at the factory specs, you are just too close or holding the trigger open too long.

The droplets you see trailing off the center are what you will use to “tune” your gun.

Turn in the material knob to make the droplets smaller (and or raise the air pressure). The balance you need to attain is the smallest droplet size possible before you loose the coverage desired. In other words if you turn in the material knob too far, not enough material will be coming out to cover the panel!

Now, you’ll notice that I said, “raise the pressure to the gun”, while earlier I said to set it to manufactures specs. We are talking a very small adjustment. It is a fine balance in material to air ratio and a little more air than specified is okay. Even if it is an HVLP gun the inlet pressure recommended is to maintain the 10 lb limit at the cap. Well, about three quarters of the country has no regulations for HVLP use so if you go over the 10 lbs all it will do is atomize the material a little better. You may loose a little of the benefits of HVLP though. But remember you have a lot of control with the material adjustment knob.

After you are happy with the droplet size, DON’T TOUCH THE FAN CONTROL. It will change the PSI at the cap and will change the atomization you worked hard to get.
Do this spray out every time you spray as material change, temp, and humidity will necessitate a spray out droplet pattern test. Good luck!

Click here to see a spray out pattern

unstable 07-12-2004 08:56 AM

Ok I shot the car and I think Stevie Wonder could have done a better job than I did! :spank:

Besides all the prep work, the spraying was kind of fun in a way. It was almost like the reward for putting so much work into prepping the car.

I've got some runs, I've got some areas of primer that should have been smoothed out a little better. I should have shot a couple more coats of primer to even everything out...

oh well, live and learn. thanks for the help. car looks better than it did at least.

unstable 07-12-2004 09:49 AM

1 Attachment(s)
here's a favorable shot

ChrisMiddleron 07-13-2004 12:00 AM

Where did you shoot the paint?:thumbup: It looks geed from the picture. GoodJob

I used the Crossfire High Solids Urethane Clearcoat cc5000

For some reason the Black dident stick to the primer the color changing paint stuck to the black and the clear dident stick to the paint at all. They were all sprayed the same time though. For some reson I dont think my paint guy gave me the right Actavated and slow temp reducer. In my garage when im spraying can get up to 110 easy Las vegas summer times with compressors running.

Everytime I try to spray this stuff I have to put it on really thick just to lay smooth with decent atomization. Everytime I spray coats light coats it looks grainy and never lays. Im gonna try the slowest reducer I can find next time to get this stuff to lay.

Next time I paint my Blazer and brothers Crx ill post my project and hope someone on here can help me out. Thanks, CHris

MARTINSR 07-13-2004 06:59 PM

110 degrees! That sure as heck can cause problems. An expericanced painter can have a heck of a time, don't feel bad.
Listen, this is the lesson of the day :) "Solvent is the cause of 90% of failures". The solvent doing "something"; to fast, to slow, to slow a gun movement, poor atomization at the gun, too large a tip, to low air pressure, SOMETHING that is changing the way the solvent flashes, that is the root of 90% of painting problems.

In your case you were using WAY too slow of reducer. I was thinking S-W not M-S and I wasn't thinking Cross/FIRE at all. Cross/FIRE is an "OK" product. You have to remember it is a "Value line" product. Like PPG's OMNI, DuPont's NASON, they are "OK" products and will save you some money (sometimes) but they are not top of the line and will not by the odds give you as nice a job with the least effort.

That aside, that reducer was WAY too slow. CR236 is the "extreme desert" condition reducer recommended for 100 degrees, that one isn't even at the 110 you were at! Again, solvent (anything used in any paint that lowers viscosity it would be alcohol, water, lacquer thinner, enamel reducer, anything that is in the product or added to the product to lower viscosity) is the cause of your problems.

You likely had to "bomb" the paint on, the solvent flashed off the just the surface of the paint film, trapping solvent inside. That solvent pushed it's way up thru in between the color and clear creating poor adhesion. That is likely what happen with the info you have told me. The paint not skicking to the primer is unclear. I am thinking you used a wax and grease remover prior to paint that didn't totally flash off or something along those lines. However, with a really fast flashing solvent in the base, that could have caused the poor adhesion as well.

You do NOT need to bomb on the clear to make it "lay smooth". A fine atomization at the gun and a thin layer of clear will do it. The first coat should look like the last, one even good overlap (50-75%) with NO "holidays", I mean it, it should look like you are done. That is how BOTH coats should look.

You CAN apply the clear like this if the gun is properly set up, you have enough air VOLUME, and you apply it as described. It will go on without a run, and be as smooth as you dare to get it.

Does this make any sense?

ChrisMiddleron 07-14-2004 09:58 AM

Hey thanks alot I appreciate it. Next time Im gonna try some good Dupont clear with the right reducer. Also next time I goto napa to get my color changing paint im gonna make sure I get the right stabilizer. I totally forgot about it but I did use "Klean Strip" Wax & Grease remover and I waited about a week before I shot the paint without rescuffing the primer.(The lady at DuPont said that might be another reason the paint didn't stick)

The weird thing is on areas like the hood and roof that are horizontal the paint stuck other then the clear. :confused:

Next time ill spray a test panel of clear. Till this day I haven't been able to spray clear in 1-2 coats and be able to have it lay right.

Thanks for your help Im gonna be painting me neighbors Regal Cutlass, and my Blazer in a matter of months. Ill post my project and hope everyone can help me through the way.

Thanks, Chris

Randy Ferguson 07-14-2004 11:54 AM

If you are using M-S base and DuPont clear, you may be fighting yourself. THere is no guarantee that the two will merge correctly. I've not had problems with loss of adhesion when using different manufacturers products together, but I've only done it on my own stuff. I don't like to get to gutsy when working on a customers vehicle. I have used both DuPont and M-S products over the years, and honestly, am not at all impressed with either, but that's neither here nor there. You're problem seems to be mostly gun adjustment and technique. Mixing products should be something you refrain from, at least without doing your own testing. Now that you've had this problem, you maybe know what NOT to do.

Randy Ferguson
Metalshaping & Kustom Paint

MARTINSR 07-14-2004 07:11 PM

I'm with Randy, don't mix brands, ever. In my years as a paint rep there is one thing that I saw, over and over, I learned, follow the tech sheets and you will by the odds end up with a better end result, PERIOD .

Just simply follow the tech sheets, M-S tech sheets aren't going to say use Dupont clear, that is a given. Just follow the sheets.

I don't understand what happened on your horizontal surfaces. Please explain.

ChrisMiddleron 07-14-2004 11:12 PM

I dunno. Its just that on almost all horizontal surfaces the paint stuck. Like the wax and grease remover evaporated different. O well. Ill talk my dad into either switching paint brands or using better M-S clear. My Projects will be posted soon.

Hopefully yall can help me out with the wire wheels im painting for a neighbor

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