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Old 02-26-2009, 11:37 AM
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Master chemical nomorerust for pitted surfaces

I was reading about a product from Master Chemical called no more rust. When applied over a (previously) rusted surface with pits it is supposed to self level and lessen the pitting effect-after several coats. Has anyone tried this stuff? Thanks!

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Old 02-26-2009, 02:50 PM
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I am not familiar with that stuff but there are a lot of similar products out there like POR15, Hammerite, Eastwood Rust Encapsulator. I would try the stuff and see how it works.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:23 PM
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You can't "encapsulate" rust ...

Its still there,,It has to be removed ..completely..

or it will return with a vengeance..

Brand new panels from the factory rust ..

How can already "rusty"metal hold up for any(Predictable) length of time...
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:44 PM
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The new urethane coatings do a great job of neutralizing rust. Try them you will be a convert.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:55 PM
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Nothing neutralizes rust ..Its a very powerful compound ...Tell me ,,,how is it "NEW" vehicles are rusting as we speak...?
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Old 02-26-2009, 11:19 PM
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Not much else I can say . . .you obviously have it all figured out.
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Old 02-27-2009, 08:34 AM
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Please explain more about the new paints the neutralize rust.

There are some strong mis-conceptions on rust and rust "neutralizing" coatings.

First off lets start by agreeing to some facts.

Rust is not well adhered to the base metal. Actually the first stage rust (the black rust) is and the second stage is not. The first stage rust can be reconverted back to steel through electrolysis. (Do a search on electrolytic rust removable for pages of technical explanations) The red rust is comes off easy.

Rust pits have a chunk of rust sitting in the bottom.

Rust will facilitate more rust. The fact that oxygen and moisture is bound up in the loose rust (or the blob in the base of a pit) means it can affect the surroundings, even if sealed off from the air.

Proper chemical rust removal takes time and lots of access to the chemical. Think about any rust removal chemical you have used. It takes time for the acids to tear apart the rust and move it off the surface. Even longer if there is limited access like at the base of a pit.

Now with the above in mind please think about how a neutralizing paint can do much work on anything but the lightest surface rust.

Where the problem comes into play is the guys that think they can spray over any rust. I would bet the company that makes the paint tell you it is only for the lightest rust. Not something that was just cleaned off with a wire wheel.

Now lets think a bit more.

You can lay down a wonderful paint job on anything. I needed to practice on a Model A gas tank. So I took this nasty pitting thing and lightly hit it with 80 grit to get the loose rust off. Then I put some wax and grease remover on it. Then laid down a lot of lacquer filler primer as it was nothing but pits. This tank looks great today, how long do you think the paint will stay? I should have sent the tank off to scrap when the price was high.

If you are doing a car for keeps pay attention at the shows for the number of cars with peeling paint. Look in the corners. I have seen some high end home restorations come apart because the guys just did not follow directions or understand what they doing.

The moral of the story, you can only lay down a good paint job with lots of time and hard work to have the right surface.
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Old 02-27-2009, 09:31 AM
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We all know rust is bad and all things being equal, it is best to totally get rid of it. However there are times when that is impractical and at those times, these new phosphoric acid/urethane rust killing paints are marvelous. Think of inside doors, inside rockers (OEM guys seal those up tight!), in cracks between lapped panels, and dozens of other places on a car where to CAN'T get to to remove the rust. These paints DO neutralize rust with the phosphoric acid component and DO seal the surface from further contact w/ water with miracle urethane polymers. Urethanes have become my new hero - better than silicone rubber, better than epoxy even better than duct tape! I too was a skeptic but have done so many fixes with it that I am a believer. Get a small can and play with it. The finish they leave is remarkable - almost like a porcelain coating and totally impervious to rusting. All I can say is try it. Would be a shame to reject a really useful tool from your tool box w/o at least proving it first.
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Old 02-27-2009, 11:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys36@aol.com
We all know rust is bad and all things being equal, it is best to totally get rid of it. However there are times when that is impractical and at those times, these new phosphoric acid/urethane rust killing paints are marvelous. Think of inside doors, inside rockers (OEM guys seal those up tight!), in cracks between lapped panels, and dozens of other places on a car where to CAN'T get to to remove the rust. These paints DO neutralize rust with the phosphoric acid component and DO seal the surface from further contact w/ water with miracle urethane polymers. Urethanes have become my new hero - better than silicone rubber, better than epoxy even better than duct tape! I too was a skeptic but have done so many fixes with it that I am a believer. Get a small can and play with it. The finish they leave is remarkable - almost like a porcelain coating and totally impervious to rusting. All I can say is try it. Would be a shame to reject a really useful tool from your tool box w/o at least proving it first.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Normally, I would not waste my time to respond to this type of stuff, but a lot of bad info here.

First, there are what I would classify as three stages of rust on a car, I'm not talking about cans with surface rust so that test in useless.

Flash rust, normally this happens when you have a car in bare metal setting around the shop for a few months and it turns yellow/gold, would this miracle stuff work on that? Sure but so would any epoxy that is air tight.

Surface rust, the beginning stages of scale rust, the type a grinder will remove but leave little black specks, would this stuff work? Maybe depending how many mils the scale is and if shallow enough even epoxy might starve it out.

Scale rust, nothing will penetrate it or slow it down, period.
If you take scale rust and cut it with a scalpel and look at it under a microscope, it looks just like the side of a rocky mountain that has been blasted out for the expressway, we know there are air pockets but is the moisture in there?
Flip the cut side over and with a dropper apply a drop of "p-Toluenensulfonyl Isocyanate" and it will react in an explosive manner, so yes there is an extreme amount of moisture in there.
No way in Sam hells half acre is is anything going to penetrate the ledges of scale rust.

I have just been in this business to long and seen the results over the years where people have brushed this stuff on floorboards and best example is the 55-57 T-Birds that were never water tight from factory and even has baby drain holes in the floor board and 2-4 years later when it bubbles, they now need a new floor board.

Only answer is grind, stand blast or band-aid and dump the car, just my two cents worth, then again if we are going to roll the car with paint, who cares what the prep is like.

Also this is not new technology, stuff like this was made years ago when we had steel lawn chairs and steel railings on the porch, so Momma could go out every six months and brush over the rust and it would look good for another six months and she could do it again.
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Old 02-27-2009, 02:46 PM
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I think we are talking about two different things! I agree, painting a coat of latex over 1/16" of rust is folly. However these new products don't work like that. First, no-one is recommending painting anything over flaky rust. Every product requires cleaning the metal to a solid surface. Second, the good stuff doesn't just coat and hope to seal the still rusty surface from exposure to moisture. That too would be folly. On the contrary these products contain tannic acid, phosphoric acid etc., that actually convert the ferrous (red)rust from a parasitic coating to an iron phosphate. Since the cation in the molecule is iron, there is a strong affinity for this more stable iron molecule for the base metal. This treatment is used commonly as an adhesion improver for industrial equipment painting. Included in these rust converter coatings is a latex or urethane resin that consolidates the iron phosphate into a very hard solid that adheres to the base metal extremely tightly, almost as part of the metal itself. This 'composite' is totally inert and if covered with a quality epoxy or urethane top coat, will last as long as clean steel. I have done many test pieces with these coatings and it is very difficult to remove them (grinding is about the only way to do it) and when you do finally breach the coating there is no sign of rust underneath.

I grant that for sure if you just paint the stuff over a surface with flaky rust, you are doing more damage than good. However, a properly prepared surface comes out better than bare steel as a base for subsequent paint coating. Again, for those interested I recommend getting a small can and play around with it. I'm sure you will be impressed and confident in using it. As important you will learn the importance of proper surface preparation to avoid the dangers talked of above. I have floorboard in likewise leaky cars (Nash Metropolitan is the champion leaker!) that have been coated w/ rust converters for more than 10 years and look like the day I did them. With proper preparation this stuff really works.

Here are before and after pictures of a commercial application of one of the coatings on a rusty pressure vessel. The one used here is called Corroseal (same chemistry principles in all of the brands) which looks like thin Elmer's glue. Goes on as a translucent white liquid and quickly converts the red rust to black iron phosphate and dries to a rock hard surface. The tank was subsequently painted with a quality silver top coat.


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Old 02-27-2009, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willys36@aol.com
We all know rust is bad and all things being equal, it is best to totally get rid of it. However there are times when that is impractical and at those times, these new phosphoric acid/urethane rust killing paints are marvelous. Think of inside doors, inside rockers (OEM guys seal those up tight!), in cracks between lapped panels, and dozens of other places on a car where to CAN'T get to to remove the rust. These paints DO neutralize rust with the phosphoric acid component and DO seal the surface from further contact w/ water with miracle urethane polymers. Urethanes have become my new hero - better than silicone rubber, better than epoxy even better than duct tape! I too was a skeptic but have done so many fixes with it that I am a believer. Get a small can and play with it. The finish they leave is remarkable - almost like a porcelain coating and totally impervious to rusting. All I can say is try it. Would be a shame to reject a really useful tool from your tool box w/o at least proving it first.
I have to think that the rust is still there ,no matter how good the top coat ,,the top coat will lose ,,chrome is one of the hardest coatings I have ever seen , ,rust is tougher ...

Not trying to be a know it all ,,,If you are going to use the vehicle after restoration,, it will rust ,no matter what you put on it ,Or how tough it looks ..They rust when new ,built under pristine conditions..If there is no rust after a restoration ,,then there may be a chance...JMO
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Old 02-27-2009, 05:57 PM
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Now Willy, did you personally paint the tank or is this like the rolling paint job pictures they post.

We are talking about the same thing, they all work about the same and none of them will penetrate scale rust and do nothing but seal the moisture and air inside for a speedier rot out.

Of course now you talk about lighter rust, what the point? Light scale can normally be removed with a grinder.

"CARRY ON" I got my 2 cents in but you know this subject is about as stupid as using a roller, sorry but just makes me want to puke.
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Old 02-27-2009, 06:01 PM
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.....even better than duct tape!
BLASPHEMY!
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:51 PM
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You guys are right, I'm wrong. This stuff is total crap. Don't EVER consider using it!!
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Old 02-27-2009, 07:51 PM
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BLASPHEMY!
I represent that remark.
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