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Old 04-14-2010, 12:19 PM
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Metallic Chromabase questions

Im about to shoot my car with the Cheapo "Vapor" hvlp 3 gun set (1.0,1.4,1.7 Tips)

The car is primed with Nason 421-19 Primer and block sanded with 320 dry, then 400 wet, then 600 wet.

Im going to spray this weekend weather permitting.

Here is what im spraying:

Nason 422-52 Black sealer
Chromabase (Color code: DM517 Black metallic violet) Basemaker: 7175S
Chromaclear HC-7776S Hardener: 7775S

Here are my questions:

1. What tip should I spray the BC? I was thinking the 1.4

2. Ive read on here that with the cheapo guns I should crank the PSI up to around 40psi for BC and 50psi for CC. Is this true?

3. Should I spray the BC in a criss cross pattern? What about a drop coat?

4.What are some tips on getting the metallic to flow out without mottling?

5. Any other useful info would be appreciated. Thanks again!

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Old 04-14-2010, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Noob81

Here is what im spraying:

Nason 422-52 Black sealer
Chromabase (Color code: DM517 Black metallic violet) Basemaker: 7175S
Chromaclear HC-7776S Hardener: 7775S

Here are my questions:

1. What tip should I spray the BC? I was thinking the 1.4

2. Ive read on here that with the cheapo guns I should crank the PSI up to around 40psi for BC and 50psi for CC. Is this true?

3. Should I spray the BC in a criss cross pattern? What about a drop coat?

4.What are some tips on getting the metallic to flow out without mottling?

5. Any other useful info would be appreciated. Thanks again!
if the whole car is primer gray and sanded up to 600 I wouldn't seal it because any dirt in the sealer will pop out as a black dot after sand and buff.unless you sand the sealer smooth...its not really needed..
1. 1.4 should be right but I'm not familiar with your gun 1.4 is on my iwata and sata
2.again no idea about that gun.
3.usually two to three coats is plenty with chroma base...spray front to back...the criss cross pattern is lightly fogged in as a dust coat to stand the metallics up on end and make for a better POP.or sparkle.make two x' s total after two to threeregular coats..... make one half of the x going around the car the first time and the second half of the x going around a second time don't stop ,keep going around the car continuously until you've made two x's that would be four times around total.chroma base dosent really need the x coats but I do it just to be sure everything is nice and even and the metallics are standing up.
4.to spray the first two to three coats it should have a half wet half dry look making it look nice and wet is a big mistake the paint will be on to heavy.

The chroma clear goes on nice and wet.spray just like you want it to look.two coats.
one little trick you can do for a nicer job is to let the clear dry and sand it with 800 the next day...Then wait two days and clear it two more times(retape the car).it'll be slicker and take less or no buffing ,it'll have far less trash in there too.

I'm sure some of the other guys would be better at explaining this, its hard to write about a feeling and a look.good luck...

Last edited by deadbodyman; 04-14-2010 at 02:08 PM.
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Old 04-14-2010, 08:24 PM
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Everything this guy said is fairly accurate, Im not saying hes right or wrong but everyone has their own ways of doing things. I work at a body shop and paint on a daily basis. I just wanna explain my system of doing things. First before i say anything, I always use sealer before i paint anything, It helps extend the life to any paint. Base coats directly applied over primer tend to slightly fade after prolonged sun exposure because primer sucks up base coats, making it look dull.

(1) Make sure your painting area is very clean and free of dust. I always SLIGHTLY wet the floors so that dirt or dust doesn't fly up.
(2)Wash the entire car before prepping for paint, this will greatly lower the chances of trash in the paint. And dust off your cloths so you don't get fibers in your paint. I recommend you can buy a cheap paint suit at your paint store.
(3)- make sure it is all dry, and then tape everything up very detailed!!!
(4)- Clean with wax and grease remover. Use 2 towels: 1 to apply wax and grease remover and the other clean one to wipe it off. (wax on, wax offLOL
(5)-Then use a tack rag and pass it over every inch of the panels you will be painting.(i like to use an air blower simultaneously while tacking at the same time to help with dust clean up)
(6)-Now you are ready to spray the sealer. DO NOT spray the sealer too wet, Just give it a light and medium wet coat. Spray it a good 8-10 inches ways from the car.
(7)- Wait for the sealer to dry good enough so that you can wipe the entire car with the tack rag once more. It usually takes about 10 mins to dry if you spray the sealer correctly.
(8)- Now start spraying base coat from side to side, one panel at a time. First coat should be light and consistent. Always remember to tack everything after every coat of base... Second coat should be a little thicker than the first and avoid leaving the 2nd coat splotchy or cloudy. Make sure you spray your base coat slightly wet but still dry at the same time. If at the end you feel its not looking right, just let it dry completely and then sand it with 1000 grit sand paper. Then when you spray the second time around it should be a whole lot easier to lay it down very even and smooth. Kinda hard to understand but you'll get it when you start laying it down.
(9)-When your satisfied with the base coat coverage, let it dry completely and once again use your tack rag to completely clean the whole car before applying clear coat.
(10)-The first coat of clear should be what i call the guide coat. Just spray it like your not ever trying, it doesn't have to look good, just as long as you get the whole thing cleared evenly. I use the first coat as glue so the second coat doesn't run or sag on me. Alot of people spray the first coat as thick as the second coat but its not necessary. Give it about 5-10 mins before you spray the second coat. The second coat has to be thick and spread evenly across your surfaces. And watch out so you don't overlap the clear too much on your edges. Example: when you clear the whole door you always get excess clear on the edges of the fender and rear door. Just remember not to overlap that edge to much or else the clear will run or sag on you.

And thats about it. By step 10 you should have a very nicely paint car. Just remember the details are the key to a professional job. As far as the air pressure to the gun. I'll make a list for you. But it also depends on your gun, if you notice that its not enough for your gun, just raise up the pressure till your satisfied. I have a gun for primer, one for base coats, and one for clear coats, and they all have 1.4 tips. And please don't forget to use a filtered mask before painting. GOOD luck and God bless you.

sealers.. 15-20 psi
base coats... 20-25 psi
clear coats... 35-40 psi
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Old 04-14-2010, 10:12 PM
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And they opinions (and facts) keep rolling in.

First off, welcome Happy times!

Second of all, FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS.

Sanding the Chromabase is not recommended and actually warned against. There is no reason what so ever to sand the basecoat, NO REASON WHAT SO EVER. Click here for a very interesting thread on the subject.


On the air pressure recommendations, they are useless unless you know what gun is being used.

Everything else is more about style and opinion.

On the sealer, I am with DBM, I NEVER use it when shooting any panel or panels that are all one substrate. If you are doing collision work and have primer spots and different color panels, I HIGHLY recommend it. But a whole car in primer, personally I see no reason what so ever for it and all it adds is texture and two more coats to have something go wrong.

Brian
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Old 04-15-2010, 01:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
And they opinions (and facts) keep rolling in.

First off, welcome Happy times!

Second of all, FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS.

Sanding the Chromabase is not recommended and actually warned against. There is no reason what so ever to sand the basecoat, NO REASON WHAT SO EVER. Click here for a very interesting thread on the subject.


On the air pressure recommendations, they are useless unless you know what gun is being used.

Everything else is more about style and opinion.

On the sealer, I am with DBM, I NEVER use it when shooting any panel or panels that are all one substrate. If you are doing collision work and have primer spots and different color panels, I HIGHLY recommend it. But a whole car in primer, personally I see no reason what so ever for it and all it adds is texture and two more coats to have something go wrong.

Brian
Just finished reading the whole thread after seeing this post. Very interesting info in there. Although this isn't my thread, thanks for the heads up!
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Old 04-15-2010, 05:57 AM
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Yep-read the tech sheet.
Also, Chromabase "HAS" to be clear coated within 24 hrs.
Never let it go longer than that.
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Old 04-15-2010, 06:04 AM
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Agreed ,No sanding or nibbing(lightly sanding just the dirt specks) the base coats.It's good practice not to tack or even touch the last base coat and especially the fog coats.
The reason being,you can disrupt the metallics or move them around and it won't be noticeable until you clear.

Some of your high end bases claim you can tack the last coat and don't need to fog at all but I never took the chance.I never touch the last coat of base and always fog I never have zebra stripes or any other trouble. When your just starting out always follow the directions,you'll have enough trouble with that.

Fogging:
1) turn up the air pressure about 10lbs higher than you based with
2) It'll only take at most 1/2 a paint cup of base..so start with a 1/2 of a cup of base.add 25% more reducer bringing it up to 3/4 cup...
3) hold the gun 24" over the surface ...start your X ing as described previously..

Last edited by deadbodyman; 04-15-2010 at 06:13 AM.
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Old 04-15-2010, 07:55 AM
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Deadbodyman brought up a very good point; dont tack the last coat or fog coat of metallic paint. I made that mistake with my first metallic paint job and had to repaint the whole thing. It looked fine after I tacked it, but once it was cleared you could see the swipe marks and it pushed a lot of shiny metallics in some spots and left dull spots in others.
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Old 04-15-2010, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Fogging:
1) turn up the air pressure about 10lbs higher than you based with
2) It'll only take at most 1/2 a paint cup of base..so start with a 1/2 of a cup of base.add 25% more reducer bringing it up to 3/4 cup...
3) hold the gun 24" over the surface ...start your X ing as described previously..

You know this is not what is recommended on the tech sheets. It may work, but you are introducing more reducer that could end up trapped and bite you. I never, ever, ever add any more reducer to color and it all works out fine, so again, opinions.

By S-W recommendations and I believe Chromabase has the same recommendation you actually LOWER the pressure for your "drop coat" to distribute metallic. Backing off a little is actually doing the same thing so that is what I have always done.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 04-15-2010 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 04-15-2010, 10:28 AM
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just how I was taught....but its never failed me....When fogging ,the extra reducer is necessary to keep the base from drying out before it hits the surface....if its too dry it makes a dust thats hard to clear.
I'll bet I'd make your skin crawl if you ever saw me burn new paint to old paint ,like around a bumper or a sail panel....I use 90% hot reducer and10% clear with a little bulldog ,all mixed together..it works for me.
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:01 AM
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Number one and two reasons, clear peel today.

#1, trapped solvents in Black, Dark Blue or Dark Green base coat.
#2 reason, dry spraying and over reducing heavy metallics.
Do it the way you want but know the above facts.

Brian,
Time for testing if you want, as I don't really care.
Since you posted this I have recommended against the two bases that can't be sanded, the Dupont and S&W, in writing and plastered all over.

So one of my biggest jobbers just put in Dupont and 90% of their Sikkens and Debeers shops were SPI clears and primers, so they have talked to me or read what I have wrote and their resistance was bad.

So next week they flew in a Chemist to spend the day at the jobber and sure as ++++, whatever he said over and over "OK to wet sand base" as that was the old formulation, don't seem like it was that long ago tests were done, I would discount the whole thing as BS except he also said you can use regular reducer if you want in non-problem metallics, so that is a big change and he may be telling the truth.

Who knows, trick would be finding current base to test and it would give you something to do.

Thought you would find interesting and this and all came down in last three weeks.
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Old 04-15-2010, 11:21 AM
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You can wetsand a spot in the middle of a hood and not see it after its cleared????? what brands of base are they? I knew there were some out there that could be tacked and not fogged but spot sanded..without rebasing?

Just to be clear fogging is not dry spraying.
One thing I've never done is have clear peel.with the exception of Keystone clear (cheap crap) over Nason base I imediately changed clear and never had another problem.
When you use the same materials for years and the same proceedures then change one thing and have a problem I have to assume its the one thing that was changed.Keystone clear sucks and their bondo isnt much better.

Last edited by deadbodyman; 04-15-2010 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 04-15-2010, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
Number one and two reasons, clear peel today.

#1, trapped solvents in Black, Dark Blue or Dark Green base coat.
#2 reason, dry spraying and over reducing heavy metallics.
Do it the way you want but know the above facts.

Brian,
Time for testing if you want, as I don't really care.
Since you posted this I have recommended against the two bases that can't be sanded, the Dupont and S&W, in writing and plastered all over.

So one of my biggest jobbers just put in Dupont and 90% of their Sikkens and Debeers shops were SPI clears and primers, so they have talked to me or read what I have wrote and their resistance was bad.

So next week they flew in a Chemist to spend the day at the jobber and sure as ++++, whatever he said over and over "OK to wet sand base" as that was the old formulation, don't seem like it was that long ago tests were done, I would discount the whole thing as BS except he also said you can use regular reducer if you want in non-problem metallics, so that is a big change and he may be telling the truth.

Who knows, trick would be finding current base to test and it would give you something to do.

Thought you would find interesting and this and all came down in last three weeks.
You are absolutly right that the tests I did were with products I personally can't even buy anymore here in California! I don't know if the same ones are out there nationwide.

As far as recommending against paint because they fail when the recommendations aren't followed, hell, that will cover every brand made!

FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!

Brian
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Old 04-15-2010, 04:10 PM
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As far as recommending against paint because they fail when the recommendations aren't followed, hell, that will cover every brand made!

FOLLOW THE TECH SHEETS!

Brian[/QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------------------------

I agree a 100% follow the tech sheet and that is why my question would be with all the "great choices of base-coats" out there, why would you want to use one of the two, that if you screwed up a fender and needed to wet sand, you will have a failure by their own words.

On top of that, it depends on type of work you are doing, high dollar work for restro and rod building a lot of painters will wet-sand the base for the perfection they need or want.

Just no point or need to gamble in my book.
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