methanol sources and ethanol properties - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 09:05 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chillicothe oh
Age: 47
Posts: 1,445
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
also on the down side for methanol, it is extremely corossive, attracts moisture from the air readily. A lot of fuel system maintenance is required with it's use.In a racing vehicle it is worth it for the extra tourque produced but on the street it be a P.I.T.A. also with methanol prices it would be a wash or slightly higher than leaded race fuel. Around here Citgo 110 octane is 3.33 a gal. Methanol is around 2.00 a gal. and for equal power output it takes approx 2 times as much methanol per mile.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 09:55 AM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 38
Posts: 4,080
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
Billy, You just said=

"Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power."

Isn't that what I said?????.....
It isn't the fuel that makes power it's the compression increase that makes it. Go a head and fill your tank full of alky and see how well it runs.

Gallon for gallon it doesn't make as much heat energy. But you can stuff a lot more into the engine and that extra fuel produces more heat. Carries more oxygen with it too.

I guess It depends on how technical you wanna get with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 10:59 AM
ChevelleSS_LS6's Avatar
Jeep XJ and a Javelin
 
Last wiki edit: Compression test
Last journal entry: August 9, part III
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Age: 28
Posts: 1,610
Wiki Edits: 7

Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LilSmoke
Actually, it take 2.2 times more alc to produce the same btus as gas,but it will produce upwards of 30% more power and loves high comp 16 to 18 to 1 are not uncommon.Plus on a drag car a cooling system is unneccesary as it usually will actually cool off going down the track.
THAT is some sweet info! And I thought 11.0:1 was high, and anything more than 11.5:1 was race fuel territory.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 11:33 AM
xntrik's Avatar
Save a horse, Ride a Cowboy.
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsongrass1
It isn't the fuel that makes power it's the compression increase that makes it. Go a head and fill your tank full of alky and see how well it runs.

Gallon for gallon it doesn't make as much heat energy. But you can stuff a lot more into the engine and that extra fuel produces more heat. Carries more oxygen with it too.

I guess It depends on how technical you wanna get with it.

Way back there I said that

I took the same car,

went from METH to ETH (with rejetting) and the car had less power. I tried it 3 times and the results were the same. The car was always noticably faster on METH. But it wasn't worth the price difference since I still was winning every race anyway.

Keep on arguing. You can't change the experiences that I lived.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 11:35 AM
xntrik's Avatar
Save a horse, Ride a Cowboy.
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 5,131
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevelleSS_LS6
THAT is some sweet info! And I thought 11.0:1 was high, and anything more than 11.5:1 was race fuel territory.

Alky IS race fuel.....

Compressions above 12/1 are extremely difficult to get a good burn pattern in the chambers with dome pistons.

The answer is big cubes, flat top pistons, and small chamber heads.

When you convert a daily driver the mileage sucks. As I noted earlier, I think, my computer cars lose 6% mileage with 10 % ETH blends, so who cares if it is 10 cents cheaper????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 09:50 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Shreveport LA
Age: 64
Posts: 5,103
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ethanol is not as corrosive to carburetor parts as methanol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-01-2006, 11:36 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Petaluma, CA
Posts: 136
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
"It isn't the fuel that makes power it's the compression increase that makes it. Go a head and fill your tank full of alky and see how well it runs."

I can't say I agree with this. I would rephrase this to say, it isn't only the fuel that makes power it's also the compression or the amount boost pressure in a forced induction application that makes it...

There's not much point filling the tank with alcohol if the fuel system isn't capable of delivering the volume needed.

"Compressions above 12/1 are extremely difficult to get a good burn pattern in the chambers with dome pistons.

The answer is big cubes, flat top pistons, and small chamber heads."

Yes, and no. I can easily get 13:1+ with a low buck Ford 400 or 427/400 stroker combo using flat tops and closed chamber heads. Ill post some specs later.

408/400 Ford
--------------
Bore: 4.03 (+.030)
Stroke: 4.0
Chamber volume: 58cc (AU 302C)
Valve relief: -2cc FT custom pistons from T.Meyer
Head Gasket .041

---------------------
13.2:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 63cc (US 351C 4V)
--------------------------
12.4:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 50cc (Blue Thunder heads)
-------------------------
14.8:1 compression

427/400 Ford stroker
--------------
Bore: 4.03 (+.030)
Stroke: 4.175 (offset ground 400 crank, 2.123 journal, 240 I6 con rods)
Chamber volume: 58cc (AU 302C)
Valve relief: -2cc FT pistons, Wiseco custom
Head Gasket .041
---------------------
13.7:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 63cc (US 351C 4V)
-------------------
12.9:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 50cc (Blue Thunder heads)
-------------------------
15.4:1 compression

434/400 Ford stroker, T.Meyer kit
--------------
Bore: 4.03 (+.030)
Stroke: 4.25 (351W Eagle crank, custom rods & pistons)
Chamber volume: 58cc (AU 302C)
Valve relief: -2cc FT pistons
Head Gasket .041
---------------------
14.1:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 63cc (US 351C 4V)
-------------------
13.1:1 compression

or,

Chamber volume: 50cc (Blue Thunder heads)
-------------------------
15.7:1 compression

The last combo would set you back quite a few dollars but I think you'd be approaching 1000hp. Not too shabby for a '70s smog era engine with a poor reputation.

http://www.tmeyerinc.com/cart400pistons.htm
http://www.fordmuscle.com/calculators/compression.shtml

Last edited by Brian S; 05-02-2006 at 02:15 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-02-2006, 02:25 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: arkansas
Posts: 58
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
ethanol or methanol

When I started this thread I never expected to get this kind of response .I really appreciate the amount of information you guys have given.It'll take a little while to mentally digest all of it.I asked the questions I did mainly because I was contemplating using methanol as a independent fuel enrichment circuit under boost of over 7 psi.I was intending to use 91 octane gas for the main fuel supply while not under boost (or at least under low boost)and using methanol as the secondary source of fuel under mid to high boost conditions.Right now I'm confused as to which would be better (i.e. methanol or ethanol) and whether I shouldn't just use alcohol for the whole thing.I'll be using a F.A.S.T.,Haltech,or Edelbrock MPI system.I just need a bit more info to decide which,but that isn't the main problem I'm having about deciding.My main problem is I need to use the most tuneable system since I'll be running a twinturbo set-up in the 20psi. range at W.O.T. So you can see why I was considering using alcohol as the main fuel source rather than piggyback a separate system for it for high boost conditions.I already have an intercooler system that is going to be very efficient so maybe the alcohol question is moot? Any info would be greatly appreciated.Thanks for everthing and lookinf foward to hearing more!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2006, 12:26 AM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,947
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 760
Thanked 1,013 Times in 849 Posts
A rule of thumb is 9:1 for ethanol and 6:1 for methanol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2006, 09:18 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: arkansas
Posts: 58
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
a/f ratios?

Are those air/fuel ratios you quoted?I would assume they are since higher compression ratios are the norm with alcohol burning engines.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2006, 12:17 AM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 12,947
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 760
Thanked 1,013 Times in 849 Posts
Yes they are James.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2006, 04:24 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: arkansas
Posts: 58
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks for clarifiying that.Any suggestions on which would be better for the street part-time?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-17-2006, 09:09 PM
ChevelleSS_LS6's Avatar
Jeep XJ and a Javelin
 
Last wiki edit: Compression test
Last journal entry: August 9, part III
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Age: 28
Posts: 1,610
Wiki Edits: 7

Thanks: 3
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
for use on the street, I'd use what's easiest/least expensive to buy between ethanol and methanol.

I'm not sure which would be better for use in automobiles, I'm assuming ethanol since that's what they're mixing in at the present.

Last edited by ChevelleSS_LS6; 05-17-2006 at 09:26 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
gas prices 69novarodr Hotrodders' Lounge 27 04-17-2009 09:47 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.