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jamesinark 04-29-2006 08:25 PM

methanol sources and ethanol properties
 
I was looking on the net trying to find a methanol supplier near me and was having no luck.Anyone know where I can acquire some in arkansas or oklahoma?Also does ethanol have similar properties as a fuel that methanol has and if not what are the differences?I thought i'd ask on here as I've gotten a lot of good info here.I'd really appreciate any responses.Thanks.

xntrik 04-29-2006 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesinark
I was looking on the net trying to find a methanol supplier near me and was having no luck.Anyone know where I can acquire some in arkansas or oklahoma?Also does ethanol have similar properties as a fuel that methanol has and if not what are the differences?I thought i'd ask on here as I've gotten a lot of good info here.I'd really appreciate any responses.Thanks.



Ethanol is grain alcohol, methanol is wood alcohol.

I know of a source of 180+ proof ethanol, but they are watching out for revenooers.....

MCsommerreid 04-29-2006 10:13 PM

I belive methanol has less energy (thus lower milage) than ethanol, but you can get more compression out of it.

If you wanna run ethanol you can home brew it in rather large quantaties (10,000 gallons or less a year) with a $30 BATF permit and about 1 month.

xntrik 04-29-2006 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCsommerreid
I belive methanol is less powerful than ethanol, but you can get more compression out of it.

If you wanna run ethanol you can home brew it in rather large quantaties (10,000 gallons or less a year) with a $30 BATF permit and about 1 month.


Actually methanol has makes more power and that is what the Indy cars use.

LilSmoke 04-29-2006 11:26 PM

You should be able to get meth from any local oil distributor.Or just go to the track and usually a distributor is their. Right now its $115 for 55 gal.

MCsommerreid 04-29-2006 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xntrik
Actually methanol has makes more power and that is what the Indy cars use.

I phrased that wrong. I meant it contains less energy, thus lower milage. But on the other hand you get more power and can up your compression higher than with ethanol.

LilSmoke 04-29-2006 11:34 PM

Actually, it take 2.2 times more alc to produce the same btus as gas,but it will produce upwards of 30% more power and loves high comp 16 to 18 to 1 are not uncommon.Plus on a drag car a cooling system is unneccesary as it usually will actually cool off going down the track.

redsdad 04-29-2006 11:38 PM

Ethanol has a higher energy content and a higher octane rating than methanol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol

I think methanol has been the fuel of choice because it can be obtained from natural gas in a less convoluted process than ethanol. As the fossil fuels become more rare, a renewable hydrocarbon fuel, such as ethanol, becomes more attractive.

xntrik 04-30-2006 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsdad
Ethanol has a higher energy content and a higher octane rating than methanol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol

I think methanol has been the fuel of choice because it can be obtained from natural gas in a less convoluted process than ethanol. As the fossil fuels become more rare, a renewable hydrocarbon fuel, such as ethanol, becomes more attractive.


Only thing that I can tell you is that METHANOL makes more power, run in the same circle track engine retuned for it...... tried it in more than one engine.

We finally ran ethanol because it was 2 1/2 times the price of pump gasoline, and methanol was over 10 times the price of gasoline.... at that time. That disparity no longer exists.

MCsommerreid 04-30-2006 01:59 PM

I'm probably going to run my Model A roadster on E85 (Home brew). It's cheaper (though almost impossible to find in the Peoples Republic of California), and I can way up my compressions to make up for the lower gas mileage provided.

BillyShope 04-30-2006 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xntrik
Only thing that I can tell you is that METHANOL makes more power, run in the same circle track engine retuned for it...... tried it in more than one engine.

This is interesting! I'm not disputing your experience, xntrik, but this can only mean that ethanol won't tolerate as rich a F/A ratio as methanol.

Aha! I opened a new window and Googled the following, which confirms my conclusion in the preceding paragraph. (It's from Colorado State U.):

Methyl alcohol has the lowest combustion energy of all the fuels listed. However, it also has the lowest stoichiometric or chemically correct air-fuel ratio. Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power. It also is possible to take advantage of the higher octane ratings of methyl (and ethyl) alcohol and increase the engine compression ratio. This would increase the efficiency of converting the potential combustion energy to power. Finally, alcohols burn more completely, thus increasing combustion efficiency.

xntrik 04-30-2006 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillyShope
This is interesting! I'm not disputing your experience, xntrik, but this can only mean that ethanol won't tolerate as rich a F/A ratio as methanol.

Aha! I opened a new window and Googled the following, which confirms my conclusion in the preceding paragraph. (It's from Colorado State U.):

Methyl alcohol has the lowest combustion energy of all the fuels listed. However, it also has the lowest stoichiometric or chemically correct air-fuel ratio. Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power. It also is possible to take advantage of the higher octane ratings of methyl (and ethyl) alcohol and increase the engine compression ratio. This would increase the efficiency of converting the potential combustion energy to power. Finally, alcohols burn more completely, thus increasing combustion efficiency.

Billy, You just said=

"Therefore, an engine burning methyl alcohol would produce the most power."

Isn't that what I said?????.....

BillyShope 04-30-2006 06:05 PM

Hey, I'm agreeing with you! I was just looking for the reason why methanol is better, and the quote from CSU explains why it's better.

If the optimum F/A ratio, for methanol and ethanol, was the same, then ethanol would produce more power. But, as the CSU quote explains, that is not the case and methanol proves to be superior in power output.

Brian S 05-01-2006 12:53 AM

30% more power?
 
"it will produce upwards of 30% more power"

Does everyone agree with this? I've never found anyone who could give me a percentage. I thought it was closer to 10% based on the HP ratings of the '98 Super Stallion. This was a Ford concept, flexable fuel vehicle but I don't recall whether it used Ethanol or Methanol and Gas.

Would forced induction alter the percentage?

BillyShope 05-01-2006 05:53 AM

Depends on the F/A ratio. Both methanol and ethanol will give more power than gasoline, even though gasoline has more chemical energy than either one, but that's simply because you can run alcohol with a much richer mixture. Alcohols will burn over a wide range of F/A ratios, whereas gasoline ignition is limited to a comparatively small range. So, an alcohol car can give excellent fuel mileage...and barely have the power to get out of its own way...or excellent performance...and barely make it from one fueling station to the next...depending upon the F/A ratio. That's why you have to be careful when examining the claims made by those who "push" alcohol fuels for street use.

Forced induction is independent of the F/A ratio, so the percentage increase will remain the same. (The cooling effect of a rich alcohol mixture allows higher boost pressures, however, so forced induction on an alcohol engine might appear to yield superior results.)


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