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gjbach 04-30-2013 01:09 PM

mid engine vega?
 
I've had my 74 Vega v8 sitting around for a while and i think its time to make it mid engine. what do you guys think? Yes, I know I'm insane but I like it that way :mwink:

thinking about doing a ground up frame and use a Pantera transaxle, engine undetermined. This is going to be an insane project but I want something that no one else has and will perform.

Going to start drawing some plans up soon. Any thoughts?

techinspector1 04-30-2013 01:16 PM

Makes sense to me, I like different. Put these guys on your list of people to talk to.....you may change your mind about the Pantera.....
Renegade Hybrids

TucsonJay 04-30-2013 01:38 PM

I'm trying to remember popular axles from the past, for a swap like that...

Mid sixties Corvair flipped upside down?

Late sixties Toronado FWD W/Turbo 400?

What others are viable?

techinspector1 04-30-2013 02:51 PM

Porsche G50 may be the strongest unit, but it will also probably come the most dear from a cost standpoint and that's only the transaxle. Then you have to begin engineering and buying all the other costly stuff to make it work.
Rancho High Performance Transaxles and Transmissions | RanchoTransaxles.com

I've always been a cheap SOB, so have figured out how to do stuff differently and inexpensively most of the time. I was just thinking, what if a guy used a complete FWD engine/trans/diff/suspension unit from a late model vehicle and placed it amidships in the Vega? From the late 90's until the end of production in 2004, Cadillac produced the Seville with a 4.6 liter, DOHC V8 that spec'd out at about 275 horsepower and 300 ft/lbs of torque and 4-speed auto. That wouldn't make a killer acceleration vehicle out of the Vega, but corner-carving road-handling (with some aftermarket help on the front suspension) and fuel economy ought to be outa sight and it should be a blast to drive. The '98 to '03 STS model was rated at 300 hp. I'd put the car on a lift and make a cradle around the powertrain/suspension before I excised it from the car.
Cadillac Seville - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I might begin by searching for a complete car that has been crunched in the rear or side and use everything out of it, including all the wiring and electronics.
Once you find a donor, get all the factory manuals for it so you aren't flyin' blind......
http://www.faxonautoliterature.com/

vinniekq2 04-30-2013 09:24 PM

could use a corvette diff,but if you have a corvette why use the Vega?

kso 05-01-2013 12:45 PM

Packaging is the problem, both width and length. W/ a transaxle such as from a Pantera etc. the engine is too far forward, it would be necessary to move the driver position so far up that your face would be against the windshield (you're already pretty close in a stock Vega), then where does the steering wheel go? Only alternative would be to stretch the wheelbase rearward, which wouldn't do much for the attractiveness. With a transverse setup things are too wide for the narrow H-body, there's not enough you could shorten the axles to not have it looking funny, i.e. rr tires sticking too far out compared to the front. Toronado transaxles have been used, same problem...axles have to be so short the suspension doesn't work any more.

The Toro's been done a couple times I've seen. Was behind one on the freeway and he appeared to be at the threshold of control...at 55. Although it looked good at the show we were both going to.

Not saying it couldn't be done, but all car designs are a compromise somewhere. Mid-engine in a Vega is strong on "neat-O", weak on practicality.

MARTINSR 05-01-2013 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TucsonJay (Post 1671440)
I'm trying to remember popular axles from the past, for a swap like that...

Mid sixties Corvair flipped upside down?

Late sixties Toronado FWD W/Turbo 400?

What others are viable?

I don't know about flipping it but spinning it around so the motor is in the front works fine because the corvair ran in reverse! This has been a very popular transaxle for years because of this.

Brian

MARTINSR 05-01-2013 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gjbach (Post 1671429)
I've had my 74 Vega v8 sitting around for a while and i think its time to make it mid engine. what do you guys think? Yes, I know I'm insane but I like it that way :mwink:

thinking about doing a ground up frame and use a Pantera transaxle, engine undetermined. This is going to be an insane project but I want something that no one else has and will perform.

Going to start drawing some plans up soon. Any thoughts?

I love the thought, I built a mid engine 48 Chevy pickup years ago, I did the mid engine idea.

There have been a few Vega mid engine cars, one was a popular wheel stander as I remember.

Here are a few.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6.../tn_SMN825.jpg

http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets...6.15.56_pm.jpg

This one has a 500 inch Cad, I LOVE it!

http://s3.racingjunk.com/ui/0/15/300...EET-500-CA.jpg

CHEVY VEGA PANEL WAGON PRO STREET 500 CADILLA For Sale

I remember one that had the transaxle moved back changing the wheelbase and moving the wheels closer to the rear end, I thought it looked cool.

Brian

poncho62 05-01-2013 02:37 PM

Olds Tornado or Caddy Eldorado would probably be your best bet.....with a custom built frame of course

AutoGear 05-01-2013 02:52 PM

We were asked to look at doing a transaxle for the GT40 kitcar market and/or the ford GT race cars. We worked on a design using a Ford 8.8 axle and our Muncie based geartrain (essentially a clean sheet design of a McKee transaxle). Heres some stuff we found out along the way.

The G50 works but you have to 'flip' the internals and replacement parts are expensive and sometimes not redily available. Theres also an Audi transaxle that some people use for both the GT kitcars and as a Pantera replacement. The problem with a lot of the modern manual transaxles are they're either too small in terms of strength or their gear spreads are ridiculous for performance (a small V6 for example needs a 3.50 1st gear and a .75 OD First gear would be useless in a track application, so why carry the mass if you dont have to) . Theres also some minor issues for shifting it (rods vs cable shifter) and packaging.

Anyway; the answer isn't far away for you; Use a V8 Archie Fiero kit. Use the 'Muncie' manual gearbox version; they can take a pretty hefty amount of power. And, V8 Archie has kits for 3800SC; V8s and Northstar V8s.

How to Build a Hybrid MY8/M17 Muncie, and the Differences Between the Two - Pennock's Fiero Forum

Now get the sawzall.

PatM 05-01-2013 09:13 PM

Someone mentioned the corvair. I seem to recall fibre fab using this approach in their Valkerie. They employed a much-strengthened input shaft to handle the V8 torque. You might try to find some history on this. Just a thought.

PatM

1Gary 05-02-2013 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatM (Post 1671936)
Someone mentioned the corvair. I seem to recall fibre fab using this approach in their Valkerie. They employed a much-strengthened input shaft to handle the V8 torque. You might try to find some history on this. Just a thought.

PatM

You know Pat when I was a kid,the dream build I never got to was the Crown Corvair.The good thing about the wt distribution was how they drove like they where on railroad tracks,but it was also the bad thing how hard they hooked.I do remember a custom input shaft,but anything over 300hp tore the ring gear out of them.I do remember afew built with a BBC,ridiculous over wt concoctions.A slightly warmed over 350 was considered too much for the ring and pinion without any solutions.

Gezz that has to have been 40 yrs ago.But that is what I remember.

Did alittle search and this is what I came up with.Page through the article with the arrows on the bottom of the page.


http://www.corvaircorsa.com/crown1.html

techron 05-02-2013 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gjbach (Post 1671429)
I've had my 74 Vega v8 sitting around for a while and i think its time to make it mid engine. what do you guys think? Yes, I know I'm insane but I like it that way :mwink:

thinking about doing a ground up frame and use a Pantera transaxle, engine undetermined. This is going to be an insane project but I want something that no one else has and will perform.

Going to start drawing some plans up soon. Any thoughts?

Sorry gjback, I have a pantera. Ever price a ZF 5 speed?? out of a pantera. It will only mate to a 351C engine. No offence, but your first post proves you are a noob. The pantera is intirely different than a rusted out vega. My pantera is a mid engined high HP car and the rear suspention is mated to the transaxel.

timothale 05-02-2013 07:02 AM

T 10 -Halibrand
 
Years ago my brother had a print shop in
Calif and one time when I was there He was printing sales info for a New casting for an IRS that used the internals from a T 10 4 speed and halibrand quick change rear end. I don't know how many were made, sold and if the company still makes limited production runs.

MARTINSR 05-02-2013 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by techron (Post 1671987)
Sorry gjback, I have a pantera. Ever price a ZF 5 speed?? out of a pantera. It will only mate to a 351C engine. No offence, but your first post proves you are a noob. The pantera is intirely different than a rusted out vega. My pantera is a mid engined high HP car and the rear suspention is mated to the transaxel.

That's a little harsh don't you think? He is throwing this thought out there of his dream car, a very do-able dream car. He hasn't priced the ZF, so what? I could get into the rust problems in Panteras poor design but I won't, lighten up, not everyone can afford a Pantera, or even wants one. :thumbup:

Brian


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