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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 05:45 PM
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You just showed me everything I need to know when you said "Larry whoever". Larry Widmer is way smarter than you. Or me, even.

But tell you what. You go on ahead and go against what I said, I could care less. Polish the whole thing, inside and out. REAL nice ans shiny. You cannot make a horse drink- you can only lead her to water.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 06:45 PM
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That's OK, I'm pretty sure he's doing OK. I don't much care about his diet, and I almost wonder why you would. But not quite. You went to his site? Didn't know he had one. At least that's a start. Keep reading, you will learn something. Maybe. Or maybe bolt something together, I don't know. It's a thought.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birkey View Post
Cobalt327 you might want to go scroll on some other forums, cause I believe there is some schooling needed to take place. Haha a few others are under the impression that a polish will resist carbon aswell.
A LOT of misinformation gets repeated by people w/no real experience. They google something, and then repeat it thinking that no one realizes they're not speaking from experience. But resisting carbon build up isn't the issue, anyway. The issue is whether there's any real benefit or not to YOU.

I do not expect you to blindly believe me. But besides Larry Widmer, how's about Joe Sherman? He won the Engine Masters deal a while back. I think he- like Widmer, et al- also knows a thing or two. The thread below gives his take on polishing. BTW the title of the thread is not mine, that's what comes up when the thread address is posted (referring to & bull):

Polishing Piston Top and Combustion Chamber • Speed Talk

I'm done w/trying to convince you that it is a waste of your time (and this wasn't even your original question) except to say there are other things too numerous to mention that would actually give you an improvement that should come first.

As far as Widmer's chambers being polished, or what is on his site, I didn't know he had a site, so I cannot speak to whatever is there or not there. If you provide a link I could give an opinion.

But on a Civic he did that made 490 hp w/a little blower (no big deal), the head looks like:



Smooth, yes. Polished? No. Same thing for the pistons.
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Old 11-26-2012, 07:43 PM
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So the debate here is that it is just a waste of time? I'm getting mixed answers. It is obvious that it helps reduce carbon build up, and reflects heat. Correct? Just time and money.
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Old 11-26-2012, 08:26 PM
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Regardless of street or track, would you do it. Techinspector has a good way of removing carbon on a polished chamber without taking heads off. In previous post.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2012, 09:24 PM
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I have offered my opinion, and the opinions of a couple people I consider good sources of information based on their success and experience. Nothing more, nothing less.

Again- if you have done all the other things that will without a doubt give positive results, and then you want to spend your time polishing things, then by all means be my guest.

BTW, TI has not posted to this thread.
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:06 AM
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Different thread
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2012, 12:16 PM
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Instead of wasting time polishing, A water methanol unit will increase H.P. and keep pistons clean! And can be made at home if you have basic knowledge! in the 50s and 60s we made them out of windshield washer pumps! And there are economical units on the market!



In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonation injection, is spraying water into the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture to cool the combustion chambers of the engine, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger, turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications. Increasing the octane rating allows for a higher compression ratio which increases the power output and efficiency of the engine. Depending on the engine, improvements in power and fuel efficiency can also be obtained solely by injecting water. Water injection may also be used to reduce NOx or carbon monoxide emissions,and has the added advantage of removing carbon!

Water injection is also used in some jet turbine engines and in some shaft turbine engines, when a momentary high-thrust setting is needed to increase power and fuel efficiency.


Jester
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by birkey View Post

reflects heat. Correct?
Wrong! the piston gets just as hot through conduction and convection! the aluminum still has the same heat absorption characteristics when polished, the pistons polish does not reflect heat!! To reflect it has to be a radiation source like white reflects light but black absorbs the radiated energy from light creating heat! Your piston is like a POT on a stove it gets hot from the flame through conduction you can polish the bottom of a pot as much as you want!! it doesn't reflect the flames heat away! but if there is a little bit of the material of the pot that is sharp in that flame it will glow bright red and eventually melt!

The three ways heat is transferred isn't important here!


The polishing is done so sharp edges or dimples etc, do not get hotter and glow causing pre-ignition or begin to melt !! you polish so the piston heats more uniformly (no hot spots) and transfers heat to the rings, rods, crank, and to the cylinder walls and its absorbed by the coolant and oil more officiant! Not reflecting heat away but allowing the piston to absorb the heat better and more uniformly!

Carbon on a piston crown actually can protect the aluminum from excessive heat just like ceramic coatings but the carbon can get very hot and set off the incoming fuel charge, the problem with carbon is its hard! much harder then steel or aluminum ! When deposits are heavy and the water trick is used to clean it out it can get between the pistons, rings, and cylinders causing damage to all!! The water trick works because of the cold hitting the hard hot carbon and cracking it!! Like a hot glass put under cold water it breaks apart!!

"Around .002" ceramic thermal barrier coating protects piston domes. Holds heat inside the combustion chamber where it can create power , rather than dissipate through the piston to weaken or burn the metal. It also protects parts from high temperature oxidation and reduces heat transfer by spreading the heat over the entire coated surface. This encourages proper flame travel and eliminates hot spots. Less heat conduction through the wrist pins and rods keeps the crank and bearings cooler, too. And, the coating is thin enough that no clearance provisions have to be made. (Polishing does none of that!) In a drag or race engine every little bit is needed but on street or week end cars its not even measurable! "

If I made an error ? Cobalt or Techinspector etc, will correct me Im aging and don't remember everything perfectly! The bottom in quotes about ceramic coatings! I cut and pasted the rest is from my aging memory LOL! I hope this answers a few questions for you!

Jester
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Old 11-27-2012, 07:05 PM
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Remembering that i have about zero experience in high performance building, i have heard from engineers that a light or shiny surface will reflect or will not absorb heat and a dark surface will.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:00 PM
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H. Compton: The shinny surface isn't what is creating the heat transfer off the piston surface its the bulk of the aluminum that is holding the heat in and discharges it ( called reflecting) during the intake charge further vaporizing the fuel air charge by convection! Its not like a mirror reflecting light or sound reflecting off a wall!

Put a chrome ball and a steel rough ball in a dark iron box heat the box to 500 degrees and then tell someone the chrome ball is reflecting away some of the heat making it cooler! Its not both balls are the same temperature!! but when taken out of the box one will give off heat faster then the other!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
reflect [rɪˈflɛkt]
vb
1.(Physics / General Physics)
To give off, send forth, or discharge; as of light, heat, or radiation, vapor, etc.

Like a hot piston discharging or giving off heat, or a light bulb sending forth light!! or cooking a hog with heated rocks giving off heat buried under ground!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
reflect [rɪˈflɛkt]
vb
2. (Physics / General Physics) to undergo or cause to undergo a process in which electromagnetic radiation, sound, particles, heat, etc., are thrown back after impinging on a surface!

Like a mirror, or a wall reflecting sound, or a white surface reflecting light! Or in simple terms bouncing off of it like a rubber ball off a wall!!!
__________________________________________________ _________________


A bare piston will absorb heat and give off the heat absorbed polished or not by the bulk of its material ( called "reflecting") not weather its shinny or not and a rough surface will give off heat and cool much faster!!! then a smooth surface of the same material and bulk!

A ceramic coated piston does not absorb as much heat because the ceramic rejects it making a barrier , (also called "reflecting") because the heat is bounced off the ceramic coating and the heat not absorbed is left in the cylinder creating more power!

The use of the same word to describe 2 different events is confusing to most but if you know physics as you read the statements its self explanatory what meaning is meant by it! Most bloggers think of only one meaning and when they read a statement and post on a thread they make a mistake!
In Physics many words that are spelled the same have different meanings and reflecting is one depending on weather its used to describe the discharge of stored energy or the energy bounced off an object! Whether talking about bouncing something off or radiating something from within itself! The other post I guess was too simplified for some to understand !

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


I never said water causes damage when used to break up carbon!! I said carbon causes damage when broken up and gets in the rings, lands and piston material and scuffs the cylinders and rings because carbon is so hard!!!! If the water trick is used on an older engine the carbon pieces are larger and sharp!

Jester
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painted jester View Post
H. Compton: The shinny surface isn't what is creating the heat transfer off the piston surface its the bulk of the aluminum that is holding the heat in and discharges it ( called reflecting) during the intake charge further vaporizing the fuel air charge by convection! Its not like a mirror reflecting light or sound reflecting off a wall!

Put a chrome ball and a steel rough ball in a dark iron box heat the box to 500 degrees and then tell someone the chrome ball is reflecting away some of the heat making it cooler! Its not both balls are the same temperature!! but when taken out of the box one will give off heat faster then the other!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
reflect [rɪˈflɛkt]
vb
1.(Physics / General Physics)
To give off, send forth, or discharge; as of light, heat, or radiation, vapor, etc.

Like a hot piston discharging or giving off heat, or a light bulb sending forth light!! or cooking a hog with heated rocks giving off heat buried under ground!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
reflect [rɪˈflɛkt]
vb
2. (Physics / General Physics) to undergo or cause to undergo a process in which electromagnetic radiation, sound, particles, heat, etc., are thrown back after impinging on a surface!

Like a mirror, or a wall reflecting sound, or a white surface reflecting light! Or in simple terms bouncing off of it like a rubber ball off a wall!!!
__________________________________________________ _________________


A bare piston will absorb heat and give off the heat absorbed polished or not by the bulk of its material ( called "reflecting") not weather its shinny or not and a rough surface will give off heat and cool much faster!!! then a smooth surface of the same material and bulk!

A ceramic coated piston does not absorb as much heat because the ceramic rejects it making a barrier , (also called "reflecting") because the heat is bounced off the ceramic coating and the heat not absorbed is left in the cylinder creating more power!

The use of the same word to describe 2 different events is confusing to most but if you know physics as you read the statements its self explanatory what meaning is meant by it! Most bloggers think of only one meaning and when they read a statement and post on a thread they make a mistake!
In Physics many words that are spelled the same have different meanings and reflecting is one depending on weather its used to describe the discharge of stored energy or the energy bounced off an object! Whether talking about bouncing something off or radiating something from within itself! The other post I guess was too simplified for some to understand !

----------------------------------------------------------------------------


I never said water causes damage when used to break up carbon!! I said carbon causes damage when broken up and gets in the rings, lands and piston material and scuffs the cylinders and rings because carbon is so hard!!!! If the water trick is used on an older engine the carbon pieces are larger and sharp!

Jester
You just talked yourself in a big ol confusing circle.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2012, 08:50 PM
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Birkey : When talking about home insulation the reflectivity of material (shiny) is a different concept then that of shiny pistons in heat control or reflectivity!

In a wall light rays even in the dark, infrared light is one that's emitted by heat! a highly reflective material will control the light rays we cant see they can still be reflected away even in the dark of a wall in hot environments or around hot materials! stopping some materials from absorbing the light energy and creating heat!

transmission or conduction of heat energy(watts of power per square meter of area).

Jester
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2012, 09:28 PM
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There are some coatings that are interesting to me, but the cost vs. improvement is way out of line on most of it if the work isn't done yourself, and home jobs never seem to have the same quality/results as can be had using the right equipment for everything from cleaning to the actual processes. But at least there are some of these coatings that actually have measurable results (however modest they may be) and the gains tend to actually last.
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