A modest Iraq proposal for your discussion. - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > General Discussion> Hotrodders' Lounge
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2005, 12:00 PM
cboy's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: Finished
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Atwater, CA
Age: 69
Posts: 3,918
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
A modest Iraq proposal for your discussion.

In his book "Dying to Win:The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism" the author, Robert Pape, concludes:

"[S]uicide-terrorist attacks are not so much driven by religion as by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide terrorist campaign � over 95 percent of all incidents � has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw."

The author goes on to say, "The good news? The history of the last 20 years shows that once the troops of the occupying democracies withdraw from the homeland of the terrorists, they often stop � and stop on a dime.

"Between 1982 and 1986, there were 41 suicide-bomb attacks on U.S., French, and Israeli targets in Lebanon. When U.S. and French troops withdrew and Israel pulled back to a six-mile buffer zone, suicide bombings virtually ceased. When the Israelis left Lebanon, the Lebanese suicide bombers did not follow them to Tel Aviv."

This link has more if you want to follow up (It's from a Pat Buchanan column):

http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=6630

I'm sure folks on this list will react to this notion (that outside occupation is the cause of most terrorist attacks) from strongly supportive to strongly negative. But rather than discussing the merits of Pape's argument "in theory", it seems to me it could be tested out in reality without a huge risk.

The modest proposal would be that the coalition currently in Iraq withdraw totally, completely and immediately - but remain on the perimeter of Iraq, stationed at friendly bases (Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc). If the suicide/terrorism attacks diminish, we take another baby step away from the area. If the suicide/terrorist bombings continue or increase, then the forces return.

I'd be interested in opinions on the concept of such a withdrawal as a "test" of Pape's conclusions.

    Advertisement
__________________
Always learning...and sharing what I've learned. The Scratch-Built Hot Rod.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2005, 02:07 PM
53LEDSLED's Avatar
here to learn
 

Last journal entry: finishing up the skirts
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: South Lyon MI
Age: 32
Posts: 276
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i think its a win win situation. we withdraw our troops (significant drop in deaths) in return for less terrorism?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2005, 04:22 PM
78novaman's Avatar
The AMC, FORD, & CHEVY Guy??!!
 
Last wiki edit: Improving fuel economy
Last journal entry: Finally on the road
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Central Ohio
Age: 31
Posts: 299
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
I didn't click the link (I won't give them advertising $$$ for my hit on their site) but what is in your post is mainly true. However, I will disagree that we need to withdraw.

During the cold war, the US had troops stationed all over the world. We were holding off communism in Vietnam, Germany, Korea, and staving off Fascism in Japan. Now lets take a look at how successful these campaigns were. In West Germany, capitalism was flourishing. Mercedes, BMW, Volkswagen all doing great. East Germany?? You had ghettos and people dying almost everyday along the Berlin Wall. Did we pull out and let the Russians ruin all hope for the German People? No, and now Germany is one of the richest countries in the world again. Japan, seeing our ways and copying the enemy that bested them turned democratic & capitalist as well. They came into their own, and are a large economic superpowers.

Korea is the elephant in the room no one is talking about. All you hear is BLAH BLAH North Korea has nukes BLAH BLAH BLAH. What does everyone fail to mention? You guessed it, the US military has been keeping N. Korea from taking back S. Korea for the better part of a century. The South Koreans have computers, cars, and large corps such as Deuwoo, Kia, Samsung, Hynduea, LG, and many more. What do the North Koreans have? Mud.....trenches....huts....they are still in the 17th century! Random thought....how many college age liberals realize that they have the military to thank for their cheap Tibbureon or Accent?

Now I'll go ahead and bring up Vietnam, the left loves to use this benchmark to prove that the US military is wrong in trying to fight any modern war. The left created the whole idea of a 'problem' and an 'unwinnable war' (btw, there is no such word 'unwinnable' just goes to show how unintelligent the anti-war people are). If we had stayed in South Vietnam, it would be exactly like Korea is today. One half prospering, the other half trailing by 100 years; we would be buying cell phones and cars made in Vietnam instead of Korea.

I know that was alot of history, but it proves that all of the liberals need to reshape your thinking, you are still stuck in the mindset that we are fighting countries united under one flag. We are trying to fight an unmarked enemy that does not show itself in an organized fashion to the rest of the world. These terrorists have more in common with church burning KKK members than they do with a military. They are nothing more than simpletons filled with rage and hatred. Instead of White & Black substitute Islamic & non Islamic, replace Churches with Twin Towers or London Subway. How did America defeat racists? By stifling them from within. How do we defeat the terrorists? The same way. You have to go wherever they are and stifle their ideas so they cannot spread.

Setting up a perimeter would be one of the worst ideas. Whichever countries do actually allow the US to setup a base, they are now going to be hated by all the other Arab countries. Iraq would probably break out into civil war, and a 3rd party would come in, aka the leftover Tali-ban or Alchida, and hijack the country into a state like Afghanistan was before we went in. POOF!, you would take all of the Iraqis' freedoms away. Simple things like owning a car (which was illegal under Hussein) would be gone again for them. Of course we would good little boys and make sure that we don't interfere. Doesn't anyone else think it would be a bad idea? I liken the whole idea it to having prison guards outside the prison walls to make sure everyone behaves.

The times have changed, we are not going to have a country rise up and band together to take out another country. Warfare has changed. There is too much money at stake. People say that we have to watch out for China. Well, the same was said about Japan in the 70's and we are no worse off for it. It would be inpractical for China to attack any western countries, they depend on us for economic support.

But I digress. My final statement is that war has changed and some people, mainly on the left side of the political spectrum, have not caught on to that yet. We have already seen in Korea & Germany that we can be successful against an idea. We need to stick to our guns and not allow the terrorists to convince our politicians we need to pull out & let alone.

EDIT: For those of you that don't believe our war is working, and they hate us over there, you should read this article: http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapc...1/afghan.seal/

Last edited by 78novaman; 07-13-2005 at 05:04 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:15 AM
crazy larry's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: better comparison before and after shots
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: East Texas
Age: 43
Posts: 2,298
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
i have the answer....

all these detainees we have around the world. we need to knock them out physically in interrogation. while their out, we surgically implant radio tracking and monitoring devices in them. when we have them all bugged, turn them loose. use the devices to monitor and gather intel. you could even go so far as to have the device be high explosive in nature.... when we're sure that said so and so is a bad guy, drop a bomb or twelve.

all detainees go home,world is happy. we find bad guys. world is happy. there's a win win.

I needed a way to get this idea to the man in charge, so i just called my dad long distance and told him, since homeland security and the cia and the fbi are listening. I don't want any credit for my idea, just feel free to use it GW.

i say stay the course.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 05:47 AM
Hippie's Avatar
Analog man in a digital world.
 

Last journal entry: HEI comparison.
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 2,255
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
I have a friend stationed in Baghdad, while he's not thrilled about being there he said despite what we hear on the news things ARE improving. The Iraqi police and army are assuming more and more responsibility and are taking more of the brunt of the attacks. They want us out as bad as the insurgents but for a different reason, they want to stand on their own two feet. You read about all the attacks on police stations and recruiting offices but the regular Iraqis keep signing up for their military and police. Hundreds of them have already given their lives for their freedom just by trying to join to fight the insurgents and yet they keep coming to join despite the risk. Sounds to me that they have a chance of winning but they still need our help for the time being. Do we walk out on them now?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 06:00 AM
RCastle's Avatar
Come Home Safe Soldier
 

Last journal entry: Headers
Last photo:
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisville,Kentucky
Age: 43
Posts: 848
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
That guy is so full of it,his eyes have poo oozing from them. We are not over there to prevent suicide bombings from happening over in the Mid-East,we are over there to prevent any suicide bombings from happening here. It also is a holy war.Mr.Pape believes it is not. Osoma Bin Laden himself called all Islamic followers to take up arms for a Holy War. Bin Laden is definently associated with Al-Quida,who is definently responsible for WTC bombings,U.S Embassy bombings,suicide attacks against our man and women and Iraqi citizens on a daily basis.
Now,whether or not you or anyone agrees with what is going on over there.You have the right to your views,but to preach against it as much as everyone who hates W does.You might as well go right up to any man or woman in the military and tell them they are war criminals. It is a slap in the face to the troops to here and see exactly how many people believe POWs in Gitmo are having their rights violated,how we are over there fighting a war for no reason.They believe there is a reason. It is just like Vietnam,our troops came home and so many people turned their backs on them.
Was everyone who is so against Bush and the war on Iraq,up in arms when Clinton gave control of our Military men/women,war ships and so forth to UN commanders? Were you all upset as now when Clinton invaded Somilia. Was Bosnia a stupid war. Or is it only a stupid war when a Republican is in office?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 08:47 AM
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Mopar tapered axle rear brake conversion
Last journal entry: What I'm doing now...
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,267
Wiki Edits: 49

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCastle
That guy is so full of it,his eyes have poo oozing from them. We are not over there to prevent suicide bombings from happening over in the Mid-East,we are over there to prevent any suicide bombings from happening here. It also is a holy war.Mr.Pape believes it is not. Osoma Bin Laden himself called all Islamic followers to take up arms for a Holy War. Bin Laden is definently associated with Al-Quida,who is definently responsible for WTC bombings,U.S Embassy bombings,suicide attacks against our man and women and Iraqi citizens on a daily basis.
Now,whether or not you or anyone agrees with what is going on over there.You have the right to your views,but to preach against it as much as everyone who hates W does.You might as well go right up to any man or woman in the military and tell them they are war criminals. It is a slap in the face to the troops to here and see exactly how many people believe POWs in Gitmo are having their rights violated,how we are over there fighting a war for no reason.They believe there is a reason. It is just like Vietnam,our troops came home and so many people turned their backs on them.
Was everyone who is so against Bush and the war on Iraq,up in arms when Clinton gave control of our Military men/women,war ships and so forth to UN commanders? Were you all upset as now when Clinton invaded Somilia. Was Bosnia a stupid war. Or is it only a stupid war when a Republican is in office?
Very well put and I agree with every word of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 09:13 AM
Beenaway2long's Avatar
or Jeff, or Doc, or...
 

Last journal entry: Results of the Camaro
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Syracuse, NY-well, just North
Age: 51
Posts: 988
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Dewey,
Here's my take (for what its worth):
If we pull back,,what implications or message does that send to Al-quaeda?
We are NOT commited to end the terror? Its Ok to bomb us, and we'll make a quick show of force and back off?
I mean, it sounds like it COULD work, but realistically , I believe we are on the right course. Fighting them on THEIR turf. We are doing MUCH better over there than our media would like to admit.
WHY IS OUR MEDIA AGAINST THE WAR EFFORT? Simple. It sells advertising space. The war is heart wrenching. Look at the TV shows popping up. They are making money off the war. The more they can prolong it, by dividing the public, the more controversial, the more $$ they make. If every citizen supported the war, it would be a done deal by now. The enemy watched OUR TV programs. They gauge public response, that dictates their next moves. They know that the public is becoming complacent and want out. They even gauged the London bombing correct. There were no major offensives taken in response. We screwed up BIG TIME THERE!! The Brits and US should have launched a MAJOR offensive, but John Q. Public won't have it. We're tired of it. Thats WHY THEY HAVEN'T HIT ANOTHER U.S. TARGET. Its coming. We're next, again. Within 2 months is my prediction. No outcry for Brittain. Big mistake! We need to up the ante, and show resolve, or we've wasted the lives of 1750 servicemen.

These are religious zealots, combined with their own form of patriotism. They do not fear death, as it is their reward. Thats why religious persecution is so effective. Thats why there is such an outcry by fellow Muslims. Do we commit "Act for Act" ? (1) Nick Berg for say (200) pork sandwiches force fed? Taking the prisoners and making them do acts against their religion is NOT against the Geneva Convention. By the way, why is NATO forced the only ones REQUIRED to COMPLY with the Geneva Convention. Look at N. Korea. Viet Nam. Japan, Iraq, etc. They treat our prisoners to beatings, death, etc., but we can't "offend" them religiously? Please! We are fighting a war by one set of rules, and they are fighting by another set.

My opinion, is that if everyone (World) wants the US out of Iraq, turn their heads for a minute, an let the troops do what they are trained to do. Instead of letting them surrender, then let them loose to fight again, we should keep the herded up and like they would do to us. Then they would get nice pork sandwiches, instead of the sharp edge of a kalai'. Burn a Quran or two, since this is THEIR HOLY War, and we should be able to ferret out their offensives. It will draw major fire, which we are better equipped to fight. Forget being a nice guy. GET IT DONE!
But thats just MY opinion.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 10:53 AM
coldknock's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Social Circle, Ga.
Age: 42
Posts: 1,528
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Evil Ninja has a reply for Mr. Pape.



Larry
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:07 AM
NXS's Avatar
NXS NXS is offline
wind & fire = guides to power
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,534
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Fighting them on THEIR turf. We are doing MUCH better over there than our media would like to admit.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Copy of kbare.JPG
Views:	92
Size:	38.8 KB
ID:	5781  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:34 AM
cboy's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: Finished
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Atwater, CA
Age: 69
Posts: 3,918
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beenaway2long
There were no major offensives taken in response. We screwed up BIG TIME THERE!! The Brits and US should have launched a MAJOR offensive,
What would you have selected as the targets for the major offensive?
__________________
Always learning...and sharing what I've learned. The Scratch-Built Hot Rod.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 11:37 AM
USA1's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 177
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Why is this not reported more? Are they afraid of mass hysteria? http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=45246
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2005, 12:20 PM
Beenaway2long's Avatar
or Jeff, or Doc, or...
 

Last journal entry: Results of the Camaro
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Syracuse, NY-well, just North
Age: 51
Posts: 988
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Probably !
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Hotrodders' Lounge posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
just passed the 1000 dead mark bullheimer Off-Topic 54 05-03-2009 09:31 PM
Alright...I JUST don't get it?! Weimer Hotrodders' Lounge 295 02-18-2003 05:46 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.