More cast iron repair stuff - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Garage - Tools
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 08:45 AM
powerrodsmike's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Make a fiberglass fan shroud
Last journal entry: Next.. ..Bagging the king B (barge)
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: gilroy, california
Age: 53
Posts: 4,108
Wiki Edits: 161

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
More cast iron repair stuff

We were referred to this place while trying to find the best way to fix those firetruck cylinders. crack is bad, M'kay.

http://www.locknstitch.com/

They can repair castings as well as sell you the materials and training videos to do it yourself.
There were some really good explanations about why certain repairs in cast iron are bad ideas. They explain expansion and some of the reasons why iron cracks after a repair. Good stuff on how to avoid messing up your iron parts.

http://www.locknstitch.com/ExpansionContraction.htm

Advice about preheat/postheat/slow cooling cast iron

http://www.locknstitch.com/CriticalTemperature.htm

And welding advice for different types of cast iron welding/brazing procedures..

http://www.locknstitch.com/PreheatWeld.htm

I found much of it very interesting, they do try to sell thier product, which is several types of pins and locks, but it seemed like they explained the other processes without bias.

What do you guys think?

Later, mikey

    Advertisement
__________________
my signature lines...not really directed at anyone in particular..

BE different....ACT normal.

No one is completely useless..They can always be used as a bad example

Last edited by powerrodsmike; 12-17-2006 at 08:52 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 08:54 AM
weirdbeard's Avatar
1976 Ranchero GT
 

Last journal entry: Almost time for the first drive!
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ala BAMA! (Gump)
Age: 8
Posts: 1,454
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Thats good stuff. Now how do you slow cool your parts over a 24 hour period?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 09:14 AM
powerrodsmike's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Make a fiberglass fan shroud
Last journal entry: Next.. ..Bagging the king B (barge)
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: gilroy, california
Age: 53
Posts: 4,108
Wiki Edits: 161

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by weirdbeard
Thats good stuff. Now how do you slow cool your parts over a 24 hour period?
I had one welder guy tell me to pack the part in sand or vermiculite.(some of that stuff has asbestos. be careful) I think a box lined with refractory blocks would work also. Probably the best way would be to put it in an oven and gradually decrease the temp over a 24 hr period.

Mikey
__________________
my signature lines...not really directed at anyone in particular..

BE different....ACT normal.

No one is completely useless..They can always be used as a bad example

Last edited by powerrodsmike; 12-17-2006 at 09:19 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 09:37 AM
home brew's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Body and exterior tips Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Pense, Sk, Canada
Age: 68
Posts: 7,050
Wiki Edits: 1

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Great link!!! Good info and tech. Never know when you will need this kind of info. I think I will now be able to save a couple of exhaust manifolds by myself without sending them out. Guess it is time to look for an old oven for the garage.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 09:41 AM
BOBCRMAN@aol.com's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Holly, michigan
Posts: 8,082
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 22
Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts
I've been using their stitch process for over ten years. It works well and combined with the new cross-link sealers the repairs are bulletproof.

In this area, ore of the best places for major "Hot" cast iron repair/reconstruction is Sperry Welding, in Capac, Mi. He literally builds his furnace over the part and does the welding/repair at red hot temps.

In my own shop. I have been using the "oven" from the bake and blast system. I set it up to max heat. Weld/repair the block while hot in the oven, turn it back on max for a time. Then transfer the hot block to the shot blaster and let it blast for about 45 min. Then let the block naturally cool for the duration. I have had no cracking problems with this method.

Recent repairs were a Bowtie BBC that was cracked three places in the lifter valley. Several 400's with valley cracks. A tall deck BBC that was almost sawed in half by a bad piston pin and an Eagle "H"beam rod. This took a lot of reconstruction in the lower cylinders and pan rails. Plus two sleeves. Also a couple of "Bad starter boss" SBC's. Next is a 454 BBC that was dropped from a fork lift and took out the last five inches of the starter/block corner.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 09:53 AM
powerrodsmike's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Make a fiberglass fan shroud
Last journal entry: Next.. ..Bagging the king B (barge)
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: gilroy, california
Age: 53
Posts: 4,108
Wiki Edits: 161

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
BOBCRMAN, what are the welding or brazing processes that you use on your repairs in your shop? I'd imagine that different types cracks require different approaches.

I wonder if the blasting process you do after the repair does any stress relieveing to the iron.

Did you look at that pic of the firetruck cylinder I put a link to? There are some more pics of that nasty thing in my gallery.

Later, mikey
__________________
my signature lines...not really directed at anyone in particular..

BE different....ACT normal.

No one is completely useless..They can always be used as a bad example
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 09:56 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Again Mickey an excellent find I would like to point out however that as detailed as they are they have omitted (at least as far as I have read) the fact there are so many different types of cast iron and they seem to want to lump them all together in one all-inclusive category. This is a serious and all too common mistake as the procedure for some types is completely different than for others and some simply can't be satisfactory welded by normal means. The very common Malleable irons are a good example since the heat from the welding will destroy the integrity of the base metal itself by converting it into brittle Grey iron even though the weld itself may be acceptable. They do however point out something I, and many others, have argued for years and that is arc welding should be used only as a last resort but again they leave one with the impression that it should never be used when in often cases it will work ok depending on the end use. They also say that even a Nickel rod will leave the transition area from the weld to the base hard and brittle and too hard too machine but this is only half true If you use the common much cheaper 55Ni rods for cast iron then even though the weld is machinable the surrounding metal is not. The 99% and higher Nickel rods do not have this problem when used properly and can be used to repair holes that will need rethreading and other parts that may require machining. I think they should have explained that better because this is a very common procedure that we have used in mining machinery repair for years very successfully but they plainly say it can not be done, after doing it successfully for over thirty years I find this to be news to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 10:04 AM
BOBCRMAN@aol.com's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Holly, michigan
Posts: 8,082
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 22
Thanked 257 Times in 241 Posts
Just quick looked at crack. Where is this crack? Yes, I use several different methods of welding. Depending on location, material etc.

In the oven I use braze welding techniques or high nickle electric rod. Depending on if it has to be machined afterwards. Some cast iron rod is not machinable. I have also hot welded with what used to be called "easy grind" wire in my old MIG welder. Not machinable.

The purpose of the shot blast is to peen and stress relieve the weld/repair.

Just looked at gallery.. That should not be that hard to repair. Is this a sleeved or sleevable cylinder?

Last edited by BOBCRMAN@aol.com; 12-17-2006 at 10:11 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 10:13 AM
powerrodsmike's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Make a fiberglass fan shroud
Last journal entry: Next.. ..Bagging the king B (barge)
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: gilroy, california
Age: 53
Posts: 4,108
Wiki Edits: 161

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Oldred, I do agree that they seemed to lump all types into one category. I think their focus was on engine parts,, and I don't know how many types of cast iron are typically found being used for those applications.

One of the sections in the preheat weld section did actually say that they used the high nickel rod in certain applications.

I thought it was neat that they described the process of oxy/acetelene fusion repairs using cast iron rod. I never heard of that one.

Half of my reason for posting this here is entirely selfish. I would like to get input from guys like you and bobcrman, experienced in actually successfully doing these types of repairs in cast iron.

I would like to see that firetruck run again, and taking advice from those who have only done a few repairs seems unwise., (like the welder at the sheetmetal shop who wanted to heat the casting to cherry red and bend it back out of the way to clean the inside of the water jacket )

I really appreciate this type of reply. Pointing out the flaws in a process helps to get steered in the right direction.

Thanks for reading this,
Mikey
__________________
my signature lines...not really directed at anyone in particular..

BE different....ACT normal.

No one is completely useless..They can always be used as a bad example
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 10:20 AM
powerrodsmike's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Make a fiberglass fan shroud
Last journal entry: Next.. ..Bagging the king B (barge)
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: gilroy, california
Age: 53
Posts: 4,108
Wiki Edits: 161

Thanks: 0
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBCRMAN@aol.com
Just quick looked at crack. Where is this crack? Yes, I use several different methods of welding. Depending on location, material etc.

In the oven I use braze welding techniques or high nickle electric rod. Depending on if it has to be machined afterwards. Some cast iron rod is not machinable. I have also hot welded with what used to be called "easy grind" wire in my old MIG welder. Not machinable.

The purpose of the shot blast is to peen and stress relieve the weld/repair.

Just looked at gallery.. That should not be that hard to repair. Is this a sleeved or sleevable cylinder?
I'm not sure if it can be sleeved, but another crack also runs around the cylinder, where the water jacket casting intersects the cylinder . It has to run at least 1/4 of the way around. That is why I was scared to let someone inexperienced weld a big bead across it. The shrinkage and distortion that would come from that much heat couldn't be good.

Here is a link to a big pic. http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/big_crack.jpg

And another
http://hotrodders.com/gallery/data/5...nder_crack.jpg

The truck in question is a 1923 Seagrave fire truck. The pic of the 1014 cubic inch motor is in my gallery.

Again, thanks for the input
Mikey
__________________
my signature lines...not really directed at anyone in particular..

BE different....ACT normal.

No one is completely useless..They can always be used as a bad example

Last edited by powerrodsmike; 12-17-2006 at 10:27 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-17-2006, 10:21 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
My comments are aimed more at welding cast iron in general and more toward the weekend welder and it would seem that Bobcrman has far more experience than me in the repair of engine blocks. This whole subject has become very interesting and I am really interested in how this repair is finally done, keep us posted
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2006, 01:55 AM
Race The Truck
 

Last journal entry: Son's Truck
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Arizona
Age: 58
Posts: 645
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
My comments are aimed more at welding cast iron in general and more toward the weekend welder and it would seem that Bobcrman has far more experience than me in the repair of engine blocks. This whole subject has become very interesting and I am really interested in how this repair is finally done, keep us posted
Now were getting in to metallurgy don't you think trying to determine what its made of which would determine the welding material needed. Also most cast iron has a preheating spec and a cooling process. My friend uses a heatreating oven and a Metallurgy charts. I used the old timer method hot sticks and damp burlap for slow cooling.
The welding supply I used had great people with metallurgy backgrounds to serve the many needs. We would come in tell them what we were doing they would pull out charts and we got what we need. Maybe a little research in to material used in that time frame would help to determine the materials needed to repair it.

Craig
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 12-20-2006, 07:16 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: tennessee
Posts: 5,909
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
Chevy, Those temp sticks work really well and I have used them for years but now the IR thermometer has about made them obsolete but still they are handy, cheap and accurate. The guides you mention can also be a great asset both in identifying the type and the temp/process to be used however something like an engine block or head should be left to the pros. Bobc's post gives some idea of what is needed both in equipment and know-how to properly repair engine castings and a great many engine blocks/heads have been destroyed by "good" welders using the wrong methods and equipment. The guy at the sheet metal shop Mickey mentioned is one example, he wanted to heat and bend part of the water jacket? it most likely would have broken off and the break would have been anything but clean the "bend" almost certainly would have had numerous cracks over a fairly large distorted and stretched area making it extremely difficult or impossible to repair. I have had quite a number of cast iron items brought to my shop that had broken in an attempt to heat and bend them and most were beyond practical repair. Cast iron is a different animal than steel and has some major characteristic differences that MUST be considered when attempting any welding process, in most cases it is not as simple as just heating before welding and then cooling slowly.

I think Mickey is talking to the right man(Bobc) because someone with his background who can look at those pics and say "that should not be that hard to repair" has got my vote, they sure look intimidating to me
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-21-2006, 02:15 AM
Race The Truck
 

Last journal entry: Son's Truck
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Arizona
Age: 58
Posts: 645
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Hey Oldred,
Yeah I took a look at mikey links, I learned this stuff in Millwright trade School. Like I said I never used it much Like my friend did. Anyway He was in to the metallurgy end of welding which is what were talking about what process and materials is needed to do the repair.

I'm all for taking it to someone that does it for a living when you got a lot of hard to do or multiple cracks where you really need to know what your doing. I guess I looking at this as I could repair this maybe because I've done minor crack repairs before I've never had any thing fail so that being said I may be a little full of my self in my old age.

Oldred you don't need all the fancy stuff to do a repair if you follow the process required to do a repair. Again maybe the old millwright and field repair think kicking in or I just hate to take my stuff to a welding shop when in fact I'm a welder there's the kicker when one welder look at the other guy's work.
Yeah you want how much for this work. Hmmm
l'm really enjoying the conversation on cast iron its been a while hang out with welder talking repairs.

Craig
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Garage - Tools posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pro Topline Heads surfinca Engine 33 12-28-2008 11:37 AM
can a cast iron upright bend? pieese Suspension - Brakes - Steering 8 01-01-2006 02:59 AM
welding a cast iron engine block pieese General Rodding Tech 11 01-19-2005 06:46 AM
Brake parts cast iron or cast steel brainsboy Suspension - Brakes - Steering 0 05-26-2004 03:42 PM
World Products Iron heads PrimeMover Engine 6 03-28-2003 05:31 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.