motor hard to keep running in gear - Page 3 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:07 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
plugs/gas ect.

FBIRD,
This motor has never and will never have less than 93 octane in it. The man I got it from actually ran 102 octane at the mud drags in it. I don't think It needed that much but that was before it belonged to me. Yes they are the smog heads on it and I was running the AC Delco R44TS plugs, but they were fouling so I went to the 45's. What Is the brand of the plugs that you speak of?? On my next plug change I was going to put the Accell short header plugs in it so I didn't have to fight it so much to get them out. The way it is now, I have to break the porcelin part of the plug off on the #6 cylinder just to be able to get it out. If not it takes forever. Are the plugs your talkin about short or long??

Would just a plain on/off 2 way toggle switch work OK as a spark interupt If the dizzy power wire is ran through it??? This Is what i was gonna do but i figured It ask......

Danny

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:14 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
amperage

If the toggle switch will work OK, what amp size will I need, will 20 be OK or is that to much????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:19 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,525
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 330 Times in 327 Posts
Busting the porcelin off the spark plug is not going to cut it.
Once you gotten rid of all the fubared set up a R42T AC delco or champion RV8c plug or Acell shorty equvelent is the right plug .
They will not foul once the motor is set up correctly.
Some (cheapy) headers require than you fabricate your own home brewed spark plug wrench/tool using a 5/8" 1/2" drive short socket with a spoon handle welded onto it to get at the spark plug. or a modified 5/8" box end wrench.

And or use the Accel shorty spark plugs. Look up the cross reference for a AC R42T plug in a shorty style.
Again once the carb and ignition is set up properly you will no longer have plug fouling issues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-08-2008, 11:23 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,525
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 330 Times in 327 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by eatonde
If the toggle switch will work OK, what amp size will I need, will 20 be OK or is that to much????
The GM HEI draws about 10 amps at max output. An decent $15 10 to 25 amp rated automotive RV SPST toggle or rocker switch will get the job done nicely.

http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...115+4294847711


If you have a unused available cruise control switch or push button on the steering column ( usually on the turn signal stock) you can employ this as a cool ignition intrupt or momentary cutoff switch by wireing it thru a 30amp 12 volt automotive relay to control the HEI power wire. Most common 12v 30 amp auto relays have normaly open or normally closed
terminals you can use to switch/control the relay as needed.
Just another cool way to skin the cat.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 10-08-2008 at 11:51 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2008, 12:08 AM
66GMC's Avatar
Get in, sit down, hang on
 

Last journal entry: Cab Removal
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Olds, Alberta Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 2,761
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 32
Thanked 90 Times in 85 Posts
The OP might not want to hear this, but if that carb really is a 650 DP ... it's also "all kinds of wrong" for this setup.

With very low vacuum, mechanical secondaries and two accelerator pumps are just going to compound the driveability problems. Fouling plugs? Yeah I can see that, too.

At the price of gas ... not to mention washing the oil right off your rings ... a vacuum secondary carb, even one from a swap meet or a trade for that DP might be worth the investment, IMHO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2008, 03:39 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
set up

yea sorry bout that..... Its not a 650 DP anymore, thats what was on there but I have a different on on there now. Its a holley 80457 600cfm Hi-perf electric choke. I have a dual feed 750 holley vac. secondary to use but i gotta get a new base plate for it. The gremlins that live in my garage broke the corner off it while i was out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2008, 04:09 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
heads

FBIRD,
I have really come to confide in your advice, so I'd like to get your oppinion on something. I know i'll see some improvement with new heads. If I choose to go with the Brodix IK180's which I can get for 1050 new, will It be worth it?? I know I'll see some power gains, but how much should I expect??? I guess basically What I wanna know Is if i fully Port these 76cc smog heads that I have and run them on this motor, will I SEE/FEEL $1100 worth of performance, or will it just add an extra 20-25HP??? For this kinda money, If I'm not gonna gain more than 50-60 HP and TQ Its not worth that much money to me.


Also If I got the smoggers milled down to raise my CR, How far can I have them taken to???? Will this Make me unable to use the intakes I already have???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2008, 10:06 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,525
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 330 Times in 327 Posts
You should be able to make 375 to 400 Bhp with this combo with fully ported stock heads. (If you do a good porting job) That is up to you.
If you get a little more, all the bonus.
If you do a quick half baked porting job don;t expect big things.

The Brodix heads with no other changes should be good for 30 to 40 Bhp over that in out of the box trim. More, if you were to sweeten them up a bit. They would not need much work.
You're gaining a lot more than just flow with these heads.
The 70cc edelbrock perf rpms are another good head choice.
Its up to you to check and verify that the Brodix IK180 or RPM combustion chamber clears the piston dome. Minor combustion chamber relieving may be required, Or it may be fine. But its up to you to check this.
I would get a edelbrock performer rpm (or same) dual plane hi rise manifold for this combo. A lot more torque and it will drive better.

You can flat mill the stock head down to the intake valve seat edge. At that point they will be pretty thin. You're on you own. GM does not recomend flat milling more than .060". .030 to .050" should get you from 76 to 71cc.
its up to you to cc your heads first to see the actual chamber volume and work from there.
The intake face of the head should be correction milled to restore the in man fit. Ask your machinist.

Angle milling this head will get you further chamber reduction but is much more costly and involved. Don;t go there.

A finished 71cc chamber combined with a thin .015" shim head gasket will get you to 10.21:1.

I would not go further. At about 10.30:1+ this combo becomes real touchy
(pinging prone sensitivity unless everything is perfect)
10.20:1 is plenty.

Use the slighly cooler heat range high perf plugs I recomended.
A 750 cfm DP wil work best once the gear and converter are swapped.

A VS carb has the edge with the 3.08 gear as the sec opening is much more conservative. it needs to be tweeked for max performance too.
Once the motor is set up right you will have none of the fouling flooding washing issues that the OP says, with any carb. Its all in the set up.
It won't be great on gas either way but the proper set up helps a lot.

If these 76cc stock heads are not one of the older, thicker pre 1974 heavy head castings I would not bother with them at all.
The 920's, 336 441 487's are not too bad for old junk smoggers (with porting).
Some of these will not have a hardened exhaust seat.

Ditch a 882 or a 624 or simular thin cast version. Go direct to Summit or CP's or Jeg's and order new heads. Do not pass GO.

What is the head casting number (under the valve cover)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	cmotorlowcr.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	25.8 KB
ID:	33165   Click image for larger version

Name:	cmotorhighcr.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	26.6 KB
ID:	33166  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2008, 08:06 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
heads

FBIRD,
here is a list of the heads I have at home.

2 sets 416 casting 305 HO (58cc 184/150)
1 set casting 3774682 (70cc chamber)
1 set casting 354434 K13 78, I am assuming this is Oct 13, 1978 (60cc)
1 set casting # 3986339 GM14 E26 71, GM57 B5 1 (74cc chamber)
1 set 882 castings (76cc 194/150)

I was thinking of going with either the 339's or the 682's. I heard the 682's can easily accept 202/160 valves, But would I really gain anything by taking them this far, or will 194/160 suffice???? Do the 682's have hardend valve seats?? Can they be drilled for accessory holes??

I'd love to be able to use the 416's but I can't afford 110 octane all-de-time. The 70 cc 682's would keep me from having to have them milled, But again this is only temporary. I also can't find any info about runner size for any of these. Which would be the most worth while to port besides the 416's and 434's????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-09-2008, 08:25 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
advance

Also, I did the tape thing, and locked the cent. advance with wire ties... I made the mark for 36* with a white paint pen on the balancer.... The Only thing is that as I was moving the dist to attain 36 and line up my mark, the idle dropped off slightly just before the mark lined up, I would guess it was about 34* when it started dropping. It wasn't much but it was noticable.

I left it at 36 anyway like you said with the assumption that It will need it at higher rpms.... Was this the right thing to do or should I bring it back a hair and bring the idle back up?????

It is a lot more responsive though!!!! I got my new carb under warranty for the 2nd time now. The papers say that they Increased Jet size, put a 5.0 powervalve in it, and a weaker spring in the secondary. However, I put it on and It dies in gear even sooner than the other one did. The other one I could get to stay running as long as I didn't sit for too long. This one is almost undrivable, It dies the instant you put it in gear If your foot is on the brake. I did get it out of the garage and down the road one time with the new carb and timing, and It will actually do a pretty nice burn out now that the secondaries are opening, But its In desperate need of the higher stall.

Any Ideas as to why It dies sooooo much quicker with this carb when I put it in gear?????????? I thought It would do better but Its much worse until you floor it.....I'm gonna try my best to get the stall in this weekend, but just my luck, I gotta go to the bone yard and find a radiator for my daily driver truck... I got off work this morning (3rd shift BLAH) and that dang thing is leaking anti-freeze everywhere, so I'm in the wifes car now and I HATE IT!!!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2008, 09:51 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,525
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 330 Times in 327 Posts
Don;t know why the idle rpm would drop while advancing the timing from 34 to 36. It should stay pretty well the same. Check your spark plug wires.
If after checking a verifiying accurae timing if your enigine wants 34deg timing, so be it.

Remove the cap and check the alignment of the rotor on the top of the advance mechanism. Move or redo you cable ties if nessessary so they do not interfer with the rotor going back on correctly.

Before you install the carb flip it over and look at the bottom at the thottle blades. Reset pri and sec thottle blade opening at curb idle in reference to the idle transfer slot. Make them even pri and sec about .030" of transfer slot exposure.

You'll need a 3.5 or 4.5 power valve.

With this size cam and lack of idle manifold vacuum you will not get it to idle in gear untill you get that high stall torque converter installed.
The stock converter puts too much idle hydraulic load torque on the big cammed motor and drags the idle sppeed down as soon as you put it in gear.
The high stall puts little or much less load torque on the engine at idle speed. The idle rpm will not change much at all from around 900 in neutral to around 800 in gear with 36deg of fixed idle timing.
Set the timing and carb idle mix adjustment without vacuum advance connected, then, after all is adjusted, reconnect.
Check for vacuum leaks.

As for the heads I would not bother putting 2.02's in them.
Port the crap out of the set that are in the best condition and use the best 16 1.94x 1.50 valves. Put that money towards a replacement after market head down the road. Sooner the better.
None of the heads you have are the best of the old smoggers. soo.......
The 882's have a serious restricted exhaust port right around the exhaust valve guide boss. Needs a lot of hogging to open up the exhaust port around the guide boss. All the heads you have will need a serious, serious porting.
Don;t be shy. Pick the worst, worn out set and use thiem to practice a few ports to gain hand control skill. Grind right thru these practice heads so you know how far, is too far. The critical thin points are the push rod pinch and the cylinder head bolt hole that goes between the two intake port walls.
You will need at least one carbide porting burr with a long 6" stem to reach deep in the intake port.

I'd be tempted to us the 416's with nicely deshrouded, relieved, modified 66cc finished combustion chambers with the best 1.94x 1.50 valves you got. or use the best 1.94's and get 8 new 1.60" esxhausts. And a .040" gasket.
You can open up the chambers on these heads quite a bit.
Just don;t try to take all the meat from one spot.

CC one of the 416's before you start. They are often more like 60cc.
66cc chambers and a .038" gasket gets you 10.18:1 cr using the 416's with modified chambers and 1.94x 1.60" valves.
Use a old junk 2.02 valve and a old junk 1.60" valve as a guide to see how much to deshroud the chamber around the valves in the head. Do not make the chamber wider than the cylinder bore. Spread you deshrouding effort around but stay off the spark plug boss.

http://www.gofastnews.com/board/technical-articles/
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fmotor416high.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	26.6 KB
ID:	33185  

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 10-10-2008 at 11:32 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2008, 02:26 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,525
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 330 Times in 327 Posts
This is a finished full ported 416 chamber with 1.94x 1.60" valves and a modest deshrouding job and a modest deck clean up cut 61 to 62cc measured volume.

The areas shown in red are areas where you could grind/deshroud further to increase the chamber volume, to good effect. Stay off the spark plug boss ( blue)
As you can see there is plenty of untouched as cast chamber than could be ground a bit also to contribute to a finished 66cc volume without making any one spot too thin. Stay off the head gasket sealing zone. Do not make the chamber walls bigger than the cylinder diameter. (4.030")
Forget about 2.02's but you can use a old 2.02 valve to help gauge how much to grind around the valve for relief without getting carried away. But finish your head with a 1.94x 1.50 or 1.94x 1.60" valve. You'll get all the flow you need and more.

You need to check retainer to guide boss/valve seal clearance for .510" lift+ clearance and may need to machine the valve guide boss shorter to accomodate the increased valve lift.
You can drill and roll pin the rocker studs too.
You can melt down some old cast aluminum pistons and pour them into the exhaust heat risers to block off the EGR passages and improve the center exhaust ports to good effect.
Do all this before you get a valve job done.
Port to a felpro 1205 gasket size (not 1206)

Take the valves springs and rockers off all your other junk smogger heads and sell them for scrap metal. The best old smogger head is a smelted down smogger head. China needs metal.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	finished61-62ccchamber.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	11.5 KB
ID:	33186   Click image for larger version

Name:	deshroudgauge1.jpg
Views:	49
Size:	19.3 KB
ID:	33187   Click image for larger version

Name:	porting burr23.jpg
Views:	44
Size:	3.4 KB
ID:	33188  

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 10-10-2008 at 02:34 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2008, 04:21 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
heads

FBIRD,
Did you forget about the dome pistons?? I'm not tryingto contradict you cuz you have much more expierience than I, but I have to correct you. You stated that my CR would be 10.18:1 with a 66cc chamber. This can't be right, cuz you said it would be 10.2:1 with a 71cc and a .015 gasket. Kieth Black has these pistons as 11.1:1 with a 64cc head. Please double check the calculations and re-advise me cuz I don't think I'l be able to use the 416's on pump gas with these dome pistons.

Also, I do already have one of the 416's about 1/2 way ported. I need to find out what kind of apoxy I can use to fill the huge gauge in the intake runner where the rocker stud comes through. what did you use on yours?? I'm also havinga lot of difficulty getting the small area in the bowls on one side of the valve guide. It is too tight for any of my burs to fit in there. I've already spent $385 on burs, cartrige rolls (sanding), various grinding stones and a new high peed electric die grinder. This is an expensive hobby, but if It works and I do well It'll be worth it. I'll post some photos soon of my progress to see what you think of my work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-10-2008, 05:18 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,525
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 330 Times in 327 Posts
KB's cr is a rough guide based on a .040" gasket and a O DECK CLEARANCE
Look a the CR chart I posted 66cc head 4.166x .038" gasket .025" stock deck clearance and 1/2 a CC dome volume gives you 10.18:1 cr.
Start using math to check things instead of believing everything printed on the internet.
If you do not enter the right numbers when calculating the true cr you will end up with a garbage result.
Measure you pistons actual deck clearance at TDC , yourself and calculate the cr and adjust the gasket thickness and finished chamber volume as required. It is very unlikely your motor has a actual 0 Deck height.
http://www.wheelspin.net/calc/calc2.html

There is no friggin way anyone could spend that much money on a few carbide bits and die grinder. I own two (2) good electric die grinders.
I paid $55 for each new.
Look at my picks of the 416 heads I did. and read David Vizards books and free internet articles on porting chevy heads.
One side of the bowl will be different than the other. It's called "port bias"
Thin and streamline the guide boss first, then widen the port in the bowl around the guide boss just like mine are done.
I do the whole job with 3 carbide bits (1 with a 6" long shaft) and a few stones. The sanding rolls and polishing is just eye wash. You can too.
I'm not going to hold your hand throu this whole process.
When your heads look like mine and check at 66cc chamber volume or as required , you're done. take 'em in for a valve job.
This is not that hard.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=44141
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=94991
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...temnumber=3745
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...emType=PRODUCT
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...emType=PRODUCT
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...emType=PRODUCT
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...emType=PRODUCT
http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?i...emType=PRODUCT

use "dual cut" style for steel single cut for aluminum

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku
Make sure the metal is clean, rough and oil, carbon free before applying.
Do the epoxy after the valve job as the machine shop will likely stick you heads in degreaser and or "bake" them to clean them. This can degrade the epoxy. You can smooth and work the epoxy with wet fingers while its still workable. Wet finger smooth is good enough.
You can get well over 230cfm intake flow and all the power you want, without doing the epoxy.
Filling in the exhaust port EGR passages in the center exhaust ports with molten aluminum or hard block or tile grout is worth more power. Clean rough and oil free.
Some people take wodded up HD aluminum foil food wrap and pound it into the EGR passages with a blunt punch and hammer to block them off.
I have not tried this.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 10-10-2008 at 06:40 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rear end gear ratio change = spedo. cable gear change. help? turbo 350 sugar ray Transmission - Rearend 6 07-18-2007 11:32 AM
Distributor gear removall/installation ssmonty Engine 1 07-04-2007 07:11 AM
Roller cam/distributor gear information Jmark Engine 0 12-29-2003 03:56 PM
got a used gear set, have a question Dubz Transmission - Rearend 1 12-01-2003 06:13 PM
flywheel ring gear somethin4nothin Engine 6 09-25-2003 08:36 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.