motor hard to keep running in gear - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2008, 10:13 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
motor hard to keep running in gear

ok guys. I know i've told you my set up a hundred times, but Here it is again just incase anyone missed it:
piston:KB119-.100 solid/-0.5 effective head volume w/ full floating wrist pins
Heads: stock 350 heads what ever came on the 69 chevelle 350, i think 76cc
Induction: holley 600 double pmper weiand Xcelerator single plane intake
Cam: Lunati 300/300 adv. dur. w/ 515/515 lift bracket master 2
crank: eagle nodular, stock everything
rods:GM 5.7
deck: stock
fel-pro 350 overhual kit for gaskets, nuthing special
TH-400 stage 2
not positive on the gear, but i think its 3.08

OK, heres the trouble. Last night I Changed all the plugs cuz they were all black as coal from when my carb was loading up. Carb is "fixed" not flooding anymore, but still isn't Jetted right, got the right power valve, or the lighter diaphram spring i need. All that stuff is ordered and will be to me no later then 10/8/08.
So like i said last night I put all new plugs in and a new Hypertech HEI dizzy. When I started it up, it ran GREAT, about 1100 idle speed. It was smooth, no shuttering or shaking, smooth!!! I let it idle or a little bit, played with the timing a little then had to shut it down cuz it was gettin late and i didn't wanna PO the neighbors. Went back out this mornin, fired it up, adjusted the timing more, But i realize My scale on my tab only goes up to 14*, My cam really needs like 17-18* base, so I put the balancer mark 1/8" off the scale until i get a new timing tab. I did this cuz all the marks are 1/8" apart, and it ended at 14 so that should put me close to 16-17* base. I shut It off and started it back up a few times, just to check it, and it was fine.
Everything is fine till i put her in gear, then if it almost dies, and sometimes does unless I get movin quick. Like I'm losin all my vacuum. I have triple checked for vacuum leaks and there are none. I don't have my Stall converter put in yet. It still has a stock T/C in right now, but i do have a 33-3500 stall for it. Would this even make a difference, Is there anything else I can do to get the "IN gear idle speed up". Shouldn't 1100 in park be enough??

I've checked everything I can think of that will cause this. My main thought is to low vacuum, but I don't even have a tool to check my vac. HG. I do know its not much it though cuz when its idling in gear I have no power brakes until i take off and raise the RPM's then they work. Its Also very sluggish takin off. I'm sure the stall will take care of that when i have time to get it put in, but will it help the idle in gear?? Mabey Im still confused about what exactly a stall conv. does? please enlighten me

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2008, 11:48 PM
Rustydawg's Avatar
Cruzin w/Elvis in Bigfoots UFO
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Edmonton AB, Great White North
Age: 49
Posts: 248
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Hydraulic, fair idle. Needs headers, gearing and stall converter. Good street/strip cam.

Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 300/300
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 246/246
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .515/.515
LSA/ICL: 108/104
Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 2500-6500


I copied the above from the Lunati website, is this the camshaft you've got?

If your engine was going into a 4-speed Vega to fry the little tires off I could see you having some fun, but a Chevelle with stock gearing and factory converter won't be a joy to drive. The factory torque converter probably offers a lot of drag on the engine in gear at 1100 rpm - and probably stalls somewhere from 1300 - 1500 on a stock engine.

Your 3000 RPM converter will definitely help matters. You've got a mild bracket race camshaft with a tight converter and tall gears - in a car that's no lightweight. You'll be rolling at 25 mph in 1st gear just to get the engine working on the cam. This is why Lunati mentions the loose converter and gearing changes to work with it.

If it were me, I would go with a lot milder camshaft instead of changing all the other stuff. With some changes and some advice from other folk on the forum that may have been in your shoes you may be able to make it more driveable.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 12:08 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cam

Yes, that is they cam Thats In my motor. I know a milder cam would work better, but I'm working with the stuff i already have In my garage. I got the motor on a trade replacing a tranny in a guy's blazer for him. He never paid me so here we r.

Its in a 82' cutlass supreme. I already have a Dacco Pro-competition 33-3500 stall converter, and an Eaton Posi w/ 411 ring gear. I know these will help the low end a LOOOOOTTTT, but I have a newborn and work 10-12 hrs a day in a factory, so It'll be a little bit till i can get it all changed out. I'm just tryin to figure out if that will change the idle in gear?? Right now it goes from 1100 rpm in park down to about 550rpm in gear, and that cam don't like 550. Is there anything i can do to get the RMP's up enough to make it a little more drivable temporarily???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 12:14 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
headers

oh.... I forgot, It does have headman shorty headers on it. Also I really don't wanna hange the cam cuz I got $800 put back so far towards a set of AFR heads 65cc chamber, 195cc runner, that will put me around 11:1 CR. With those heads, pistons, that cam, and that CR.... It should down right scream, Im hoping to achieve 500HP+ with that set up. or atleast close to it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 12:36 AM
Rustydawg's Avatar
Cruzin w/Elvis in Bigfoots UFO
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Edmonton AB, Great White North
Age: 49
Posts: 248
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I can't think of anything that will help your idle vacuum / quality other than running as much initial advance as you can work with and playing with the vacuum advance can on your HEI to maintain vacuum advance when you're in gear.

I assume you have manifold vacuum to the distributor advance can.

There's two problems I can see biting you here, when you put it in gear the low manifold vacuum will drop even lower, possibly below the rating of the power valve in that 600 dbl pmpr, causing a rich condition and it won't idle well.

The second problem that could occur is when you drop it in gear the manifold vacuum drops to a point below where the distributor advance can pulls in, so you lose additional advance that keeps it idling smoothly.

In neutral it may be humming along OK, but put it in gear and all of a sudden it's lost a bunch of timing and running rich - ugh.

You mentioned something about a power valve change so perhaps this isn't an issue.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 12:51 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
vacuum

yea, I have the dizzy canister hooked to the vac port on the front of the carb base plate. and the modulator valve to the other. How much vac. does the modulater valve pull??? I know that on the TH400 there is a kit that allows you to remove the modulator valve, but i think you gotta have a full muaual valve body... right?? I dont care to shift it myself If I could save a litte vacuum. LOL

Yes I've got a brand new holley coming same as the one i have now but they are putting the right stuff in it to match my motor. They were already supposed to have it done but didn't do it, but i can't complain, atleast thier willing to work with me and are givin me a brand new one. I can get it to idle at 800 in gear, but then its at 1600 in park.......
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 02:10 AM
techinspector1's Avatar
Senior Curmudgeon
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hemet, California, USA
Age: 72
Posts: 13,164
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 794
Thanked 1,087 Times in 899 Posts
Between the cam and the single plane intake, you've shot yourself in the foot using a stock converter. I doubt if you're makin' enough torque to stall it to 1200. The looser converter will make a world of difference. I can understand using the cam if you had it on hand and money was tight, but why did you order a converter with a stall that high? Wouldn't a 2500 have worked better with that cam? I may have been doin' it all wrong, but I try to match the converter stall to the low limit on the operating range of the cam.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 09:40 AM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Age: 50
Posts: 4,023
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
I know it is hard to find the time, but I would just change out the cam and forget hotrodding a few years. Get that kid a little older first.

A 355 with 76cc heads, -5cc pistons, and 0.040" thick felpro head gasket makes around 9.65:1 cr.

With a 3.08 gear, stock converter, and 9.65:1 cr, I would install a cam with 214 degrees on the intake and 214 on the exhaust and with 114 LSA. This cam should idle low enough for the stock converter and have a late enough intake closing point to work with that compression ratio, old iron heads, and pump gas.

Summit has cam and lifter kits for 90.00 that would be around the size that I mentioned above. I would also recommend that you use ZDDP additive during cam break-in and at each oil change. cost another 10.00 at each oil change for the ZDDP but worth it when running a flat tappet cam with todays relatively abrasive oils.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 03:32 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,202
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 388 Times in 382 Posts
That cam needs a lot lot lot of timing at idle to idle properly.
The short method is to simply lock out the mechanical advance and reset the timing at 36 BTDC at idle.
You can find 36 on the balancer by wrapping an length of masking tape around the balancer. mark where the two ends of tape meet.
Remove the tape and lay it out flat say on a counter top. measure the length of your two marks you make on the tape while it weas on the balancer.
1/10th of that length is 36. Mark the tape at 1/10th the length of the circumference and reinstall the tape around the balancer referencing the circumfrence marks at TDC. Mark off the 36 point on the balancer using the 1/10th length you made on the tape.
Now you can set the timing at 36deg BTDC.
Once you have done this readjust the carb idle mix screws.
It will never idle right with the stock stall converter.
With you young family you'd be much better off with a mild hyd cam and stock converter and gears as all you'll achieve is burning a lot of gas for nothing.
Summit #K1102 is just right for your situation. A lot lot easier to change the cam and lifters than change the gears and converter.

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...2&autoview=sku
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 09:13 PM
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Age: 50
Posts: 4,023
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
You got the right idea but I think that summit cam is too small to run 9.7:1 cr on pump gas. A good cam for a 3.08 gear and stock converter but not enough to handle the 9.7:1 cr. It will detonate. So 214 with a wide 114 lsa will make it idle smooth at low rpms and close the intake valve late to bleed off cylinder pressure.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 11:29 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cam

OK guys, I appreciate the suggs. , However did you read my last post??? I don't really get why everyone makes it seem like a major job to change the converter and gears.

I am putting the Stall in this weekend, Its less than a day's work. I can drop the tranny, pull the stock T/C out and stick the new one that I ALREADY have In, and lift it back up in there in under 6hrs without ever taking it out from under the car. It wouldn't even take that long if i had a lift, but i'll be working on my back so it'll take a little longer. No big deal..... I just need to know if this will help my idle or not??
I'm not trying to be combative or rude or anything, and for those of you that are supportive, I'm sorry you gotta hear this. It just gets extremely frustrating when I ask for assistance with an issue and people start telling me to change my set-up. I have plans for this set up, and if it doesn't work out like i plan then I'll hafta learn from that and incorporate that knowledge into my next build. I see this happen on here all the time. A guy asks for help with one thing and all of a sudden a bunch of people start critiqing his stuff to thier own personal preferences. Then the person says well I think I'm just gonna stick with what i got, for what ever reason of his own be it financial, future plans or just preference, and some guys still try and push the issue. Then If they don't do it your way you won't help them with thier origonal problem. Its kinda childish. Thats why we are individuals, we are all different and all have different Ideas and aspirations. It's not my place to tell you how to build your motor unless you ask me to. I'll tell you what may be more benificial, and if you don't like my idea, thats fine no big deal. Its yours not mine, but I'll still try and help you to the best of my ability to solve your problem cuz thats what i want other to do for me.
And for whoever said that i hould hang up hotrodding for a few years, It ain't gonna happen. I LOVE this hobby, and as long as i can physically turn a wrench I'll never quit. As soon a my son learns to walk He'll out there right beside me, Infact, He's 4 months old and I already have a car for him. Its an 82' mustang and I'll never get rid of it. I plan on it being a project for me and him to do together.

I simply don't wanna change the cam, cuz I'll just hafta change it back in the near future. The heads, stall and gears are going in. The stall is this weekend, And it will be sometime this winter for the heads and rear-end. The only thing I don't have yet Is the heads, But like i said I already got $800 put back towards them. I'm not gonna just sell the posi, ring and pinion, and stall just to buy another cam?? no.

Things I don't mind doing is changing the intake, carb, ignition system, timing, ect. How much vacuum could I gain If I went back to a performer RPM?? I have 3 of them in the garage. I mean there's gotta be a way to make this thing Idle In gear better. I know I'm not the only one in the world using a cam this size. If you have any suggestions that don't involve selling all the stuff i have and changing my whole set-up, or quitting hotrodding. I'd be more than happy to hear them. Thanks
Danny
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 11:41 PM
j.d.brown.042964's Avatar
406 Caprice:Rust Never Sleeps!
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: St.Clair County,Alabama.
Age: 50
Posts: 278
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
EatonDE; I have an idea for you that might work. How about an idle boost solenoid that would trigger from shift linkage when put into Drive? Those carb mounted solenoids were used on Rochester carbs alot in the 70's and I believe into the 80's as well, and were tripped with engagement of a/c clutch, so as to compensate for compressor load. Basically you could do a "perfeshunal rube goldberg setup" with a limit switch tied into shift linkage somewhere, feeding + power to a custom mounted (adjustable) idle boost solenoid. And by doing it this way it would only engage the solenoid with ignition on and trans.linkage in Drive, although you could add another limit switch to be activated in Reverse, or feed from b/u lite switch. Whadd'ya think?... -Jim

Last edited by j.d.brown.042964; 10-06-2008 at 11:41 PM. Reason: spelling
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 11:49 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Timing

FBIRD,
So let me make sure i understand you right
First I wrap the tape around the balancer marking both ends, then find 1/10th of that and mark it on the tape.
Put the tape back on the balancer lining up the 2 circumphrence marks that i made on the tape with the TDC slit that in machined into the balancer.
Then with a timing light i can line up the mark I made on the tape that is 1/10th of the circ. with the 0 degree mark on my timing tab scale that will put me at 36 degrees.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, Isn't that a little much for the base or do you mean 36 total?? I'm not questioning you, just trying to make sure i understand. This should be mechanical only with the vacuum unhooked and the hose plugged right???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2008, 11:59 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
idle selonoid

Jim,
That sounds like a good idea, but where would I get these solenoids from. I have seen them on Q-jet carbs before, but is this something i could buy?? How would I mount the limit switches, down on the tranny linkage or on the column?? Do these even work on holley carbs??Just for curiousity sake, How do the other guys do it?? Like i said walla go, Im sure I'm not the only one runnin a cam thins big. Infact I know a lot of guys on here are runnin bigger ones. Will it not be enough loosness when i put the Stall in this weekend?? I've never ran anything bigger than a comp 280 magnum, so I'm still learning. I will get this lined ouot one way or another. Thanks for the good positive feedback and ideas Jim, keep em coming.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-07-2008, 12:05 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mt.Vernon,IN
Posts: 484
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
stall converter

Techinspector,
I didn't build this motor, I got it from a buddy that owed me some money for fixing his blazer. But anyway, I got the stall this big for 2 reasons, 1 cuz the guy i got the motor from told me that he was running a B&M 2500 and it wasn't enough and could definitely use more. 2 I got this Dacco brand new for $85. Thats why I'm gonna use a 33-3500 stall.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Rear end gear ratio change = spedo. cable gear change. help? turbo 350 sugar ray Transmission - Rearend 6 07-18-2007 12:32 PM
Distributor gear removall/installation ssmonty Engine 1 07-04-2007 08:11 AM
Roller cam/distributor gear information Jmark Engine 0 12-29-2003 04:56 PM
got a used gear set, have a question Dubz Transmission - Rearend 1 12-01-2003 07:13 PM
flywheel ring gear somethin4nothin Engine 6 09-25-2003 09:36 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.