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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-13-2002, 09:41 AM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
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Interesting case, one thing you might notice in the photos is that there is no rolled edge on the lower crossmember or even a flanged section. All factory setups use this type of design to prevent the type of failure illustrated in the photo. They don't make them that way just because it's cheaper, it is a safety built into the design. Adding a welded edge is not the same as a rolled or flanged edge, any engineer could tell you that. One of the things that concerns me most is this industry seems to think you can cut up some plates, weld them together and box them and you have a product. There is such a thing as too rigid and not rigid enough, failure modes lie on either side. Another thing I notice in the design has the edge of the plate in an area of tension, if the plate was stamped or flame or plasma cut you have now introduced a heat or shear affected zone in an area of high tension and repeated stress cycling. I hate to say it but the design seems flawed to me, have a look under you factory vehicle and notice the design of the crossmember, I see none of those design features incorporated in this example.

Just my opinion.

BTW in Canada if you performed a modification like this to your vehicle all bets are off in the lawsuit arena, it is assumed you know the consequences of modifying a factory part and you assume the liability. Buyer beware is the rule here.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2002, 04:08 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Centerline AKA Bill:
<strong>I'm familiar with this web site and some of the people that frequent that place. They are traditionalists that don't hesitate to bash anything that isn't 100 percent old school. They hate billet and anyone who uses it. Most of them have no honor; since they have in the past raided other forums and disrupted them with foul language, impersonation, and obnoxious posts just for fun. Needless to say they arenít my kind of people, but enough editorializing. </strong>

Needless to say Bill that you are the one who cannot resist the chance to bash the HAMB. Honestly I hope that no one else wastes their time on responding to your personal views.

<strong>
The failure of this particular Mustang II unit can be attributed to two things. Poor repair work/maintenance and the use of strut rod eliminators. Neither of which would have caused the problem by itself but together it spelled failure.</strong>
Where does the "repair and maintance come in? Repair indicates that there was damage to fix, which I do not believe there was. Maintanace?? Ya got me on that one.

<strong>
I personally don't use the strut rod eliminators because they transfer all the tortional braking and front/back movement forces (caused by bumps etc.) to the lower "A" arm pivot point. Ford didn't design the system to work in this manor and since they spent millions of dollars designing this suspension system I see no reason to change it. The strut rods are designed to take the tortional forces and transfer them to the frame where they can be absorbed/disipated without damage to the other suspension components. This is a much better and safer design. That being said, it is only as safe as your welding.</strong>

First you agree that the desing is bad, but the reason it failed is due to the installer/owner shoddy workmanship which you have not viewed.

To quote Cosmo the owner of the car. "Friday I get a call from Gary Heidt, and he states that the damage is 'obviously' not their fault, and he will cover nothing. He goes on to state that the crossmember has 'obviously' been broken before, and re-welded, as he can detect both TIG and MIG welding in different locations.
I told him when I installed the crossmember I used whichever welder was not in use at the time.
BTW, none of my welds have broken, and the crossmember has not been repaired before, either"

<strong>Personally my experience with Heidts tells me that they are telling the truth here and not the owner of the car. </strong>

Bet that has nothing to do with the fact that the owner of the car is a HAMB member.... right Bill?

<strong>
Overall the Mustang II suspension system is a very safe and strong IFS that can be easily installed at home by the average shadetree mechanic as long as he has adequate welding skills. </strong>

Quoting Cosmo again "And, again, none of my welds failed (I am schooled in the use of O/A, TIG, Arc, and MIG), the reason for the presence of both MIG and TIG welding is simple: I used what machine was free that day."
<strong>
Just because one guy had a problem (which he caused)</strong>

More of your opinion i'm afraid.

<hr></blockquote>

Note I have used no foul language, and I'm sorry if this constitutes a raid. I wasn't aware we weren't allowed out of our cages to visit the "nice" people of the Hot Rodding world. Really Bill, it's just too bad that you don't play well with others. You just can't be as cool as us HAMBers[tm]that's all Sorry :p All my love to ya
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2002, 04:58 PM
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I've been wanting to reply to this and took a look at centerlines website....he's telling people that a weld doesn't have to look good unless its going on a show car..that is criminal...if a weld looks bad, it is.

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: oldjunk ]

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: oldjunk ]</p>
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2002, 04:59 PM
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Zeke, if it's (HAMB)is just for "traditionalist" what am I doing there?
you've prolly seen my stuff and not much of it is "traditional"..

BTW, why the suspension took a dump, i don't know and don't even want to speculate as i haven't seen it in person

uh, that ain't MY car to your left.
wtf?

[ November 15, 2002: Message edited by: tomslik ]</p>
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2002, 05:22 PM
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Hey Centerline, did you read anything about the HAMB before you signed on??
[quote]Spreading the gospel of traditional hot rods and kustoms to greasers world wide... <hr></blockquote>
that is a direct quote, it is right under the link to the HAMB. You need to be more discreat with your words and where you post them. There are several members of Hotrodders that are also members of the hamb. Hambers don't bash all that is non-traditional. I have recieved nothing but compliments from hambers about my car, and it is not totally traditional. They might not be your kind of people, but I'll tell you something...dudes that go around talkin ***** about my friends and fellow hot rodders aren't my kind of people (just in case you are a little slow, I'm talking about you).
For the rest of you...sorry I went off topic, I just felt something needed to be said.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2002, 07:00 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by tomslik:
<strong>Zeke, if it's (HAMB)is just for "traditionalist" what am I doing there?
you've prolly seen my stuff and not much of it is "traditional"..
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hell Tom, I don't even know why I'm there but it sure can be fun place to be.

Join the "Dark Side" of hot rodding, we don't bite(well not to hard).

Zeke
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2002, 03:10 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by KULTULZ:


<strong>I came across this post on another message board, but thought some of you might find this interesting. The poster had a catastrophic failure with his crossmember (Heidt's) and his dealings with the manufacturer.

<a href="http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/026126.html" target="_blank">-Suspension Component Failure-</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Here is an additional post;

<a href="http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/027318.html" target="_blank">-Another Failure-</a>

I am not blasting any manufacturer...just trying to bring this information to your attention...
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2002, 11:53 AM
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Another case of strut rod eliminators gone bad. <img src="graemlins/drunk.gif" border="0" alt="[drunk]" />

Centerline
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2002, 05:40 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by KULTULZ:
<strong>

Here is an additional post;

<a href="http://www.jalopyjournal.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/027318.html" target="_blank">-Another Failure-</a>

I am not blasting any manufacturer...just trying to bring this information to your attention...</strong><hr></blockquote>


I'm ready to go on record saying this front crossmember is a bad design and should be avoided or at least modified to give it a better chance to survive. This failure is identical to the one in the original post. Fatigue crack started at the sharp inside corner formed by the intersection of the bottom and side plates. They could go a long way just by continuing the bottom plate all the way up the riser of the side plates. Again, I don't like strut rod eliminators - too much of a major modification from the original design. Note that lower A arms on front ends w/o strut rods are very wide and robust. The MII x-member is very narrow with the intention of having strut rods to give the wide base and fatigue resistance.

[ December 02, 2002: Message edited by: willys36@aol.com ]</p>
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2002, 09:46 PM
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Hi,
Being a mechanical engineer I have often wondered when something like this would happen. As many of you have observed there may be a problem with the fabricated front cross member..not just this particular mfg. but all in general, since they are all similar. It would seem to me that a days' worth of labor at a design house doing some structrual analysis would be well worth the cost. Besides being able to blow your horn about being "professionally analyized for strength" advertizing. It only took me about 1/2 hour to model up a good likeness of a front crossmember like these.
I 've done some computer modeling of structrual parts and have done stress analysis in my time.. several items survived way over 8,000 g gun launch. If you look at the Must II crosmember in the real car vs. the after market cm. you can readily see the difference. FMC spent a h...l of a lot of $$$ doing this for some reason so I would think that maybe we (us hotrodders) might take some time to look at the thing. They don't spend $$$ they don't have too. The after market piece is much lighter, and cleaner looking. However the cars weighs about the same with about 3 to 10 times the hp. What do we expect??? Lighter, not as well designed (no stress analysis), and a lot higher loads....just asking for problems.
Some of the gussets certainly will help. (TLAR engineering..that looks about right eng.)I think the strut rod is ok too even if it is ugly. Its' hidden under fat fenders anyway. How much do gussets weigh anyway??? couple pounds? So what. not to pretty?.. How do you thing your body will look after a 70 mph crash?...not to pretty either. Plus it hurts like h...l. If you can't do the welding properly have someone who can do it, weld it for you. Pay them a reasonable rate and don't chizzle them. they may save your life. What's that worth $100? $300?? Pick.
My point is don't be afraid to add some gussets. If in doubt ask any mech eng. Even a student can give you a good TLAR opinion that will improve the situation.
Hopefully this problem will be worked out outside of the courtroom or we all will be paying through the nose again for something that is not our fault. We may wind up making our own CM's again. What if one of these fails??? We may be all driving rice cars made so it will be illegal to open the hood (if it can be opened) if you aren't some kind of certified technician. No more hotrods.
Saftey has to be first guys and gals.

bentwings
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