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Old 01-19-2011, 03:21 PM
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Mustang II Inclination Angle

Does anyone know what the inclination angle of a standard mustang 2 spindle is?

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Old 01-19-2011, 03:43 PM
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Just for the sake of clarification you don't measure SAI on the spindle alone. It is measured with the spindle mounted. The SAI can be changed with the movement of the control arms in aligning. If you change camber you are changing SAI.

So either you need the factory SAI on a Mustang or you need "included angle" which is SAI subtracted from Camber.

What are you trying to acheave with this info?

Brian
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:03 PM
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I am building the suspension on the Pantera from a blank sheet of paper. Right now I am only concerned about the angle between the ball joint mounting holes and the spindle. I don't think I will use them but I am looking anyway.

I have a whole host of issues I am looking at beyond what I can really cover here. I had considered the MustangII as an alternative due to the commonness of the parts. The Wilwood upright, very similar, has a 11 degree angle but that is more then I care to use and quite a bit more then the Pantera. I have seen some vague references to the MII about the same as the Wilwood. Front tires are 285/40-15 and I prefer to keep them flat on the ground when I can.

The upgrade includes putting in a power steering raq. The original Pantera has a bump steer issue with the raq being the wrong distance between ti-rod pivot. I am cutting and welding the new raq to the needed distance and making it where I can adjust it with shims.

Even with a shallow inclination angle I am still keeping the scrub radius down by designing new a arms which will allow me to remove wheel spacers but there is also a lot of work in getting large brakes to fit 15 inch rims (which I am getting there). ALL of this has to be done before I tune the distance on the steering raq.
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Old 01-19-2011, 04:08 PM
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I am also going to put an air ride shock up front so I can raise the front when I need to. I built the airdam from scratch out of aluminum and I want to get along as long as I can before I have to do it again:


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Old 01-20-2011, 02:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gow589
I am also going to put an air ride shock up front so I can raise the front when I need to. I built the airdam from scratch out of aluminum and I want to get along as long as I can before I have to do it again:


hi gow, why go with power rack? there is no weight to speak of on the front end, a manual rack works great. as for the bump steer issue it was corrected on the later cars with a 1/4" spacer between the stock rack and the mount to the chassis, replace the bronze bushing inside the pass. side of the stock rack (they are ALWAYS worn out) 285 40 15? i run 225 50 15 on the front. assuming you stiil have the stock front suspension, use it, the KPI is quite acceptable, even with offset aftermarket wheels (i'm running 8" wide offset centerlines) the only big problem with the front suspension on a pantera is cranking in enough positive castor. this can be solved easily with an upper control arm bushing kit sold by most of the pantera vendors.

as for your front air dam, that looks identicle to my hall pantera air dam, except mine is fiberglass. the air shocks in the front is a good idea (hall sells those also) when you get the car back on tires you will find that air dam sits LOW LOW!!!... . i have chunked mine twice in the last 3 years, but fiberglass is easy to fix.

by the way, I LIKE THE PAINT, LOOKS VERY NICE. it looks like you are building one nice car. have you been into the wiring yet? if not, have fun with that!!!! my car was one of the last ones built, 614x, yours looks like a pre L. care to post the first 2 or 3 numbers so i know where your car sits in the production run. maybe i can tell you where the weak spots are and what to look for...
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:12 AM
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This one is 905 and 280 is in the barn. You know your going to have to post a photo of yours now.

Yes the angle on the pantera uprights is about 8 degrees. That is why I was not wanting to use mustangII if they are around 11 even if parts are common. I did find reference that the Willwood are replacements for the MII which are 11.

The bump steer shim is not a fix. Bump steer is a parabolic arch. The shims for bump steer move the parabolic arch to where it is less noticeable in bump but far more pronounced in droop.

When I was building the car, I bolted up tubes to the suspension locations, built a frame. I took this frame and measured the suspension locations. I used this to measure suspension points which I put in a suspension program.



What I found was the Pantera raq is about 1.5" too long between the tie rod pivot. With a raq modification you can eliminate the geometry induced bump steer.

Why power steering? Well first there was no problem moving the wheel at speed but there is a difference between moving the wheel and smooth control. For instance, when you fly an airplane and you come in to land you trim the pressures off the wheel. If you don't and it takes a little bit of force to move the wheel back and forth you will never have the precision to have a good landing. If you trim the pressure off, it only takes a few ounces to move the wheel you can finesse a feather like landing. Same goes for a car. Sure you can horse it around and beat your chest but there is lost precision in what you do.

Problem with previous power steering conversions is few have considered rack dimensions, pump pressures, etc. They just threw in a rack and said "this sucks" and I can see why. So I guess my goal is to see what can be done with the rack. Ironically, my power rack will have to be extended 1.5". The pump is electric which is something I have been playing with.



To mount the rack I built a box to mount it to. The box allows for some adjustment of the rack up and down and is bolted to the frame rails:





As far as the tires, I told you the wrong size. They are actually Michelin TB5 26/61-15 which equate to 295-40-15. I just got the tires mounted up and I am cleaning the rims. I am going to clearcoat them and need to get this done before suspension mock up.



With all the things I am doing I am really more interested in a blank sheet of paper a-arm build.

The air dam was a Hall air dam. The car was a Hall conversion. I took the airdam, made some drawings, laser cut some aluminum and fabbed a new air dam. The nice thing is this air dam closes up the underside and the back side of the wheel well:












I laid the radiator down and the hood was scratch built from aluminum. No air comes out under the car anymore. All air comes out on top. If I need more air flow the aluminum panel position can be changed to allow more air flow:







I also built a belly pan. I don't know if I will use it (would help keep the belly clean at least) but I fabbed it out while I had it on the rotisserie:


Last edited by gow589; 01-20-2011 at 05:31 AM.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techron
have you been into the wiring yet?
The wiring I am designing from scratch. I have spent a great deal of time drawing a wiring diagram and still have a bit to go; but it is all coming together well.

I am using a fuse box which you bolt wires to with terminals. Even that I am hacking and splitting up to spread it out a bit. It will be mounted in the front trunk behind the battery along with relays.

I have removed the A/C (I don't use it). Compressor, condenser, lines, etc was over 100lbs! I got a vintage air heater. I pulled the unit apart, I am building an aluminum box to pull the incoming air from the weather vents, or from inside the car and distribute the air and heat. It's actually quite involved. I will be controlling everything with servos; cold air, recirculate air, floor heat, defrost, air vents, and all of this will be controlled with a basic stamp (programmable microprocessor).

I have another blower I am looking at a way to blow air from the left window duct into some wemacs. (my gas tank is on the right). I haven't figured out an aesthetic way to get them around the roll bar yet.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:56 AM
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we think alike, i love my pantera as do you. we are in totally agreement. i now build early corvettes.
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Old 01-20-2011, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techron
we think alike, i love my pantera as do you. we are in totally agreement. i now build early corvettes.
Ahem.....you come here and say stuff like that without posting photos?

I won't get upset at off topic diversions!
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Old 01-20-2011, 07:57 AM
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Awesome build you have there! I want to thank you for not beating my up and showing my ignorance in geometry. I just did some home work into exactly what IS inclination angle.

I don't have an answer for you as to what the inclination angle of the spindle is, but do want to thank you for teaching me something.

Again, VERY cool build you have going.

Brian
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:57 AM
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That's a pretty amazing build on your Pantera! It's really a nice looking car. From what I've heard the angle that works best is around 7 degrees. Less and it will be constantly steering to keep it straight, and more it will always want to straighten the tires and fight you in cornering.
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:51 AM
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I am not the best sometimes when it comes to using English properly. I know what I mean.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
Awesome build you have there! I want to thank you for not beating my up and showing my ignorance in geometry. I just did some home work into exactly what IS inclination angle.

I don't have an answer for you as to what the inclination angle of the spindle is, but do want to thank you for teaching me something.

Again, VERY cool build you have going.

Brian
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Old 01-20-2011, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1971BB427
That's a pretty amazing build on your Pantera! It's really a nice looking car. From what I've heard the angle that works best is around 7 degrees. Less and it will be constantly steering to keep it straight, and more it will always want to straighten the tires and fight you in cornering.
The Pantera is 8. I was looking for alternatives mainly because aftermarket parts would be more common and it would bring me more options for brake packages. The Willwood being 11 counts that one out and if that is basically a MMii then that is out. That makes my best bet the originals...which isn't really a problem.....Just thinking....like we all do.
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