Mustang II Kit Failure - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2003, 08:27 PM
Dutchman's Avatar
Old Salt
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Portsmouth, Virginia
Age: 56
Posts: 491
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Trees, Thanks for the great update and glad your alright. I drove some of those hills and know the turns are tight and the hills are steep.
Another check on the bolts with fatigue is the working bolt. With the fatugue the bolt can loosen due to minature vibrations and sometimes start the hole to elongate. If the bolts have been worked for a long time, a measure check on the hole is needed and the hole may need sized to the next size bolt.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2003, 05:27 AM
Member
 

Last journal entry: JB's 37 Pickup
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Smoky Mountains
Age: 76
Posts: 2,358
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Dutchman, I will examine the hole for wear. The part of the bolt that I have out did not show any visual wear, but I have not put the mic on it yet. The hole will be drilled and reamed for the replacement bolt which is 1/8" larger.

Trees
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2003, 06:38 AM
horvath's Avatar
Acoustic Rock ... for real.
 

Last journal entry: About Fusible Links
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central New Jersey
Age: 63
Posts: 1,982
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Excellent news, great info.

I called Fatman when I first got my truck and was trying to eliminate a shimmy problem ... being such a greenhorn, I was asking obviously uneducated questions and those guys were so gracious and understanding with me, it was surprising! They very patiently listened carefully to be sure of understanding what I was after and answered me with great clarity. Not only a good IFS, but a great bunch of people, too.

Alan
54 Chevy Pickup
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2003, 09:47 AM
willys36@aol.com's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild a Rochester Quadrajet 4MV carbureto...
Last journal entry: How to change auto shift timing on 200R4
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 8,388
Wiki Edits: 21

Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Great news Trees. Like I said B4, I am not familiar with Fat Mans X-member but it sounds like he has his ducks in a row. I even like his approach to the strut rod mounting - recognizes the weakness and proposes a proper solution. Can't say I am as high on Heidt's stuff from all the info I have gathered to date. IF I ever went with an after market unit, that is the depth of investigation I would go with the manufacturer B4 I laid down a single red cent. Nest time you talk with him you might suggest he put together a technical sales brochure detailing all of the engineering and testing credentials you described.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2003, 11:30 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 46
Posts: 4,995
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 91 Times in 74 Posts
Quote:
The part of the bolt close to the threaded end was softer than grade 5 and near the head and the fracture, it was closer to grade 8, which was indicative of flexing (working) hardness.
Quote:
the bolt had 3 hashs, signifying grade 5. I, nor Fatman, think grade 8 is the answer because while stronger in tensil strength, they are weaker in shear, which is what became lacking when the bolt work hardened.
Ummm...thats a bunch of HOOOEEY!. Grade eight bolts outperform grade fives in every regard except for the Charpy impact test. If he was truly looking for exceptional performance in the Charpy test he would have used a forged structural bolt like a A-320 bolt which also outperforms the grade 5 in every regard. From his lack of concern and failure to take action in proactively searching out all those with the poor quality grade 5 fasteners he seems like more of a lawyer than an engineer. Five complete structural failures in 40 000 for a critical suspension component would mean a massive recall to a manufacturer like one of the big three. I think his product was never tested to failure if you ask me and he is terrified of that coming out in a court room. Funny how they always offer to bend over backwards to pay for the minor inexpensive inconveniences when you could have been killed by their faulty product.

Sounds like he is more concerned with a lawsuit than solving the problem and preventing deaths.:skeptic:

What else is new?

I would be interested in an online interview with the "Fatman" to discuss this matter if he is interested? Invite him over?
__________________
Outlawed tunes from outlawed pipes
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2003, 06:21 AM
32vicky's Avatar
Tomorrow Will Be a Better Day
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 135
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Once again 4 Jaw Chuck is correct. The link below will run you through a comparison of Grade 5 versus Grade 8 as related to shear.

Grade 5 vesus Grade 8

Since it would be nearly impossible to fatigue this fastener in 26,000 miles under normal circumstances (unless you spent all your time off road), I would look to installation technique, proper design of bolt size versus grade and/or manufacturing flaw in the original bolt. What's most interesting is that you stated it had failed through 90% of the cross section sometime earlier based upon rust in the shear area.

Another comment that troubles me was "the fracture would be indicative of over torque". This is a common misconception. Fatigue failures are more commonly accelerated by under torque.

The most telling info in the "fix" was not a properly heat treated Grade 5 bolt direct replacement, but was a properly heat treated Grade 5 bolt 1/8" larger in diameter.

I don't know the circumstances of this failure and therefore won't comment, but the misinformation on different grade bolts in shear does a disservice to the rodding community. Everything else being equal, I'll bet my life on a Grade 8 bolt over a Grade 5 bolt any day.


Last edited by 32vicky; 06-29-2003 at 06:47 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2003, 09:37 AM
willys36@aol.com's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild a Rochester Quadrajet 4MV carbureto...
Last journal entry: How to change auto shift timing on 200R4
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 8,388
Wiki Edits: 21

Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Here is a site that shows a step-by-step photo shoot of what I have been urging Heidt's owners, especially those w/ strut-rod eliminators, to do. Consider it seriously.

http://www.clubfte.com/users/jniolon...nginstall.html
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2003, 05:35 PM
Member
 

Last journal entry: JB's 37 Pickup
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Smoky Mountains
Age: 76
Posts: 2,358
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Chuck, 32 Vicky, Willys, good info. Willys, Fatmans cross member is made from 3"X4"X1/4" tubing and has the thick wall tube welded in as per your attachment and the end is welded up also. My lower arms fit on the outside of the cross member and does not have the extenders Adding the gussets/end braces for the bolts look like a good additional safety measure. Having a grade 5 bolt failure that was not properly heat treated is not the same as having a true grade 5 failure. Unfortunately, we are in the age of being victims of substandard products from overseas where quality control is non existant. Remember airliners jet engine attachment bolt problems? Our aircraft industry has horror stories about repairs being made overseas with substandard parts!!! When a bolt such as this fails 3/4" inside the hole away from the shear stress point, you have to wonder why other than bolt too small, too much torque, not enough torque, grade 5 vs grade 8. The threaded end of the bolt bent about 10 degrees and I used a 3 ft long cheater to bend it back straight and it did not fail. I still am trying to get the remaining bolt out of the hole and so far it has not budged!! I have tried turning it to break it loose, I have made a tool using a 1/2 inch grade 8 bolt to try and press it out after letting it soak two nights with high quality penetrating oil. I would like to drill it out, but we are talking 3 1/2" of free hand drilling and as good as my partner is doing machine work, we have not used that last resort. Anybody got any ideals? If I could get the car on a roll back without damaging it, I would make the 2 1/2 hour trip to Fatmans and let his guys have some of the hair of the dog's back!!

Trees
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2003, 05:44 PM
crazy larry's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: better comparison before and after shots
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: East Texas
Age: 43
Posts: 2,298
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
everone, lets meet at Trees'

We'll get you loaded, and even make the trip with you.
wonder what a shop would think if 35+ people showed up to raise cain over sumptin'?

I can't see what your lookin' at, but i don't guess theres any way to get a hammer on it, or would driving it out cause as much damage or more than you have allready?tth.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2003, 09:18 PM
willys36@aol.com's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild a Rochester Quadrajet 4MV carbureto...
Last journal entry: How to change auto shift timing on 200R4
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 8,388
Wiki Edits: 21

Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Well, when I have a stubborn bolt I always resort to heat. If you can get it red hot, it will loosen right up. I'm with 4jaw on the grade 5/grade 8 issue. Grade 8 is better in every way, tension, shear, torsion, etc. Factory hardware are all forgings or grade 8 equivalent bolts. In fact the bolts may even be forgings. I still would look for a way to pick up the bending stress on that lower A-arm with something like a strut rod like the added bracket on the one I reference above. Just too much going on down there to be without that extra insurance for my liking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2003, 10:01 AM
willys36@aol.com's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild a Rochester Quadrajet 4MV carbureto...
Last journal entry: How to change auto shift timing on 200R4
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 8,388
Wiki Edits: 21

Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Also, impact wrenches put out quite a bit of dynamic energy. I have had success with them when a static pull with a cheater bar was unsuccesful. Maybe the vibrations will loosen the bolt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2003, 04:57 PM
deuce_454's Avatar
Member
 
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
Age: 39
Posts: 1,000
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
what overseas are you referring to trees?? Japan, Europe.??????????!!??? i really have to muster every last ounce of self controll not to comment on that one...


Anyway about them bolts; To tell you the truth grade five bolts are made of about the same grade of steel that nails, and boat anchors are made from. i really doubt they are heat treated at all. It sounds like fatman has one heck of a sales crew and know just what to say, but 5 faliures in 40000 units is a VERY high number, that means that you have a 1:8000 cance of a catastrophic suspension faliure (if that was the standard new cars were made to 20.000 new cars would have a front suspension faliure every year in the united states alone!!) Id rather take my chances in a pinto getting rear-enden by a ford SUV running firestone tires :-)

so fat man might have the quality controll he did a song and dance about, Just remember that quality controll doesnt ensure good quality, only that every unit is equally flawed....

and whats that B.S. about haveing fasternes made to their exact specs.. youd be better off buying plated grade 8 bolts in fleet farm.

anyway good to hear that no one got hurt and that the problem is getting resolved
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2003, 06:42 PM
Member
 

Last journal entry: JB's 37 Pickup
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Smoky Mountains
Age: 76
Posts: 2,358
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Deuce, probably no bolts from highly industarlized countries. Brokers here like to buy cheap, sell high which means places like India, China, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina etc. Don't see many that say made in Japan cause they would have to pay more. So congrats on your self control. I wouold not be worried about Swedish Steel, or German or British nor most of the other old Europe countries.

Willys, I have tried every trick on the bolt so resorted to plan last. We put a #3 centerdrill in a 1/2 " piece of drill rod and I made a jig out of 3/4" plate by reaming a 1/2" hole in it. Then clamped the jig on the cross member with the hole centered over the wrung off bolt. Then it was just brute stuborness to sink the center drill, change to a 1/2 in drill and go to the bottome of the center drill hole and repeat over and over until I had drilled a "free hand" hole 3.5" deep. Then after about three good raps, was able to get the rest of the bolt out. Then I step reamed the hole to 5/8" for the new bolt. The only drill motor we had with a 1/2" chuck that would fit in the limited space between Cross member and grill shell was an 18 Volt Dewalt. The other side will be tackled tomorrow if I can raise my arms!! Fortunately, the bolt head is still on it so we will try hard raps on the back side while craking the impact wrench to 175 psi.

Hope you guys are not as tired of hearing the bloody details as I am of trying to fix the problem!!

Trees
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2003, 08:11 PM
horvath's Avatar
Acoustic Rock ... for real.
 

Last journal entry: About Fusible Links
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central New Jersey
Age: 63
Posts: 1,982
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Oh, man!

And I was complaining about having to cut my exhaust pipe with a pipe cutter yesterday ... just barely able to spin the cutter without hitting the frame (by pushing the pipe away at each revolution) -- the PO welded the glasspacks on!!! Can you believe it? I put new Cherry Bombs on and had to cut off his welds and put a new pieces of pipe in to install my new mufflers.

Hahaha! What a joke compared to your dilemma, Trees! My heart goes out to you man -- keep us posted!

Tonight I put a coolant return system on my truck -- I had to cut a 1/4" tube and put a hose on it!!! ... and then! I had to drill two holes to mount the canister!!! -- murder!!! I SLAVED over this project for all of 20 whole minutes!!!


Sorry, bro' ... just tryin' to cheer you up. Nyuk-nyuk.

Alan
54 Chevy Pickup

Last edited by horvath; 06-30-2003 at 08:16 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-30-2003, 08:20 PM
willys36@aol.com's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: How to rebuild a Rochester Quadrajet 4MV carbureto...
Last journal entry: How to change auto shift timing on 200R4
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bakersfield
Posts: 8,388
Wiki Edits: 21

Thanks: 1
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
I always weld my glass packs in.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Suspension - Brakes - Steering posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.