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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2012, 03:10 PM
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Awesome!! You changed the gaskets. Did you check anything else. Like straightness of intake and head flanges. Check the angles between the intake and head. Put it on dry first. All things suggested in the posts. Or just change the gaskets.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2012, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWENUTS View Post
Awesome!! You changed the gaskets. Did you check anything else. Like straightness of intake and head flanges. Check the angles between the intake and head. Put it on dry first. All things suggested in the posts. Or just change the gaskets.
everything seemed to align great, I checked for vacuum leaks this morning and there were none

the intake is right and snug, I mean if there is anything off i can't tell

could it have anything to do with the lucas oil stabilizer i put in ?

the oil level marks at the full line, not over or under
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2012, 04:29 PM
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what heads are you running and where are they from?
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:55 PM
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I never read what you discovered when you took at look at the spark plugs on that problem bank. Any show an indication of oil? A black wet or gummy deposit. I am assuming that all went well with the intake gasket change, which it should have unless that head was milled a good bit which would throw off the head/manifold alignment. We can also assume the problem is not valve guide or seal problems because you switched heads, unless they were both worn out. The PCV valve is typically routed to the base of the carburetor which, if that were the problem, would make it smoke out both pipes. Keep in mind that some PCV valves are routed to a single manifold port which would make it smoke out that particular cylinder. The engine itself sounds like it was freshened up, not rebuilt, which if done correctly and proper clearances observed would be just fine. If all this is the case and you have a spark plug showing a little oil then I would suspect that the second compression ring was installed upside down. If the top ring is upside down you lose compression. The oil ring has no up or down side. The second compression, despite its name is actually designed as much for oil control as well as a compression backup. It actually scrapes the oil down off the cylinder wall, a lot of oil gets thrown on the cylinder walls from the crank etc., then the oil ring can collect it and feed it through the slots or holes in the piston to drain it back to the sump. If the second compression ring is installed upside down then it will actually pump oil upwards and it will go past the top compression ring, which is not designed for oil control, and get into the combustion chamber. Unless you are careful it is easy to install a ring upside down. Probably not what you wanted to hear but if the cylinder head is good, and the head to manifold seal is good, this would be my next guess. The fact that this engine was re-ringed and if, as you say, it has forged pistons which were not original equipment on too many engines, and the fact that you had lifter clatter, makes me think that this possibly may not be a quality refresh. No offense meant to anyone. I really hope you find another cause but this gives you another avenue to pursue if necessary. Best of luck.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2012, 06:02 PM
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well thanks everyone for all the help

the heads are 601 casting 305 heads with 2.02 1.6 stainless steel valves installed, with new seals, valve guides etc

the combustion chamber was unshrouded to fit the bigger valves it said in the description from J&C enterprises

well to summarize it had this problem before, and mysteriously went away, I install some new heads that will raise compression over 1 full point and the problem has arisen again

anywho, the engine runs great, the cylinder have good compression, i'll just have to learn to live with it
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2012, 10:08 AM
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You didn't say what the plugs looked like?(oil deposits) Did you notice any oil in the heads intake ports? Are you certain that it doesn't smoke on initial firing by having someone else start the engine while you observe the exhaust after its sat a couple hours?(brief smoking that you might not see from the drivers seat)That would really just about rule out the guides/seals.
You said it still smokes after you removed the pcv valve. It could be that there is residual oil left in the exhaust that dosn't start smoking until it gets hot enough, and might take awhile to get rid of? You might need to leave the pcv valve out for a week, give or take, depending on how much oil is in the exhaust. Put a breather in its place temporarily. I had a pair of the Edelbrock valve covers, and they suck, oil that is. Also install new plugs on that side for evalluation. If they show oil after a week, you'll know its not the pvc for sure.
If they do you'll know that the source is either the intake gasket area, or rings, if the guides checked ok as I described IMO. I'm no pro, but I hope this might give you somethings to help troubleshoot the problem.
FWIW
ssmonty
PS Sorry if I duplicated suggestions. By the way, you didn't say what tranny you're using, could it be a vac. modulator valve? Oh yea, if the pcv is connected to the carb it would probbally smoke on both sides,, not nessasarily if conected to intake port.

Last edited by ssmonty; 07-15-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2012, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmonty View Post
You didn't say what the plugs looked like?(oil deposits) Did you notice any oil in the heads intake ports? Are you certain that it doesn't smoke on initial firing by having someone else start the engine while you observe the exhaust after its sat a couple hours?(brief smoking that you might not see from the drivers seat)That would really just about rule out the guides/seals.
You said it still smokes after you removed the pcv valve. It could be that there is residual oil left in the exhaust that dosn't start smoking until it gets hot enough, and might take awhile to get rid of? You might need to leave the pcv valve out for a week, give or take, depending on how much oil is in the exhaust. Put a breather in its place temporarily. I had a pair of the Edelbrock valve covers, and they suck, oil that is. Also install new plugs on that side for evalluation. If they show oil after a week, you'll know its not the pvc for sure.
If they do you'll know that the source is either the intake gasket area, or rings, if the guides checked ok as I described IMO. I'm no pro, but I hope this might give you somethings to help troubleshoot the problem.
FWIW
ssmonty
PS Sorry if I duplicated suggestions. By the way, you didn't say what tranny you're using, could it be a vac. modulator valve? Oh yea, if the pcv is connected to the carb it would probbally smoke on both sides,, not nessasarily if conected to intake port.
almost all of them seem to be covered in oil, on both sides of the engine

almost little to no smoke out of that one tail pipe, and minimal out of the other one even at operating temperatures

no smoke at all at start up or for a few min afterwards, i made my dad start it up for me while i watched, and even made him drive it home while i trailed in his car

this engine is in my jeep, 5 speed manual

my dad who is a mechanic tells me to ignore it, theres no noticeable oil consumption, and the smoke isn't that bad, and most important of all it drives and runs great so i guess whatever
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2012, 03:14 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Sounds like you may have a bad guide and or seal. Please tell me those heads were given to you and you didn't waste all that money rebuilding them.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
Sounds like you may have a bad guide and or seal. Please tell me those heads were given to you and you didn't waste all that money rebuilding them.
i've kinda ruled out the heads since my old pair of heads did the same exact thing and then mysteriously stopped cold turkey

i got these 601 casting heads with new seals, guides, and 202 1.6 stainless steel valves for 400$ shipped

my dad keeps telling me if i don't want to bore out the cylinders and do a complete rebuild to just live with it since it doesn't seem to be a big deal, still drives me crazy when i'm doing some spirited driving, come to a stop and that puffy smoke comes out
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2012, 04:00 PM
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I just might try one last thing

i'm going to invert my pcv valve and breather setup, and swap each to the opposite valve cover

I know it's a long shot but i'll see if that changes anything at all
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2012, 12:19 AM
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well here's an update guys, same problem, it really smokes alot on hard deceleration once the engine is nice and warm, yet no smoke on start up and it takes a minute or two to show signs of smoke at idle

I've decided to have my engine re-ringed at a machine shop

before i go and blow a few hundred bucks on that, have any of you guys ever seen worn or improperly installed rings cause smoke on deceleration ? especially when the engine is warmed up and by my logic when the oil is at it's thinnest ?

this engine is a recent rebuild with new forged pistons and rings with i'd say 15k miles tops, when i replaced the old cylinder heads with new ones I did notice a piston that seemed a bit odd as if it weren't as tight in the cylinder as the others

this piston is on the side that's giving me trouble(the other side doesn't smoke at all), however this could just be me freaking out over nothing

If anyone has been following this thread and has any ideas don't be afraid to shoot, i'm a step away from replacing the entire short block and possibly blowing several hundreds or over a thousand dollars unnecessarily perhaps

Edit- just to give you guys an idea of what i'm going through, when the engine is nice and warm and i'm cruising at a good speed and get caught at a light and i brake suddenly, a heavy cloud of dense oil smoke puffs out of the one tail pipe, enough to fill up the sidewalks and carry clouds up the block, making people stare and neighboring drivers raise their windows because of the rancid smell, very embarrassing

Last edited by xzero117; 07-31-2012 at 12:27 AM.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2012, 01:38 AM
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one last piece of info that i forgot

once the engine is nice and warm, it will consistently smoke ever so slightly, enough to leave the exhaust tip with a nice oily film after a few min, perhaps just 1 bad oil control ring ?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2012, 10:20 AM
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Possibility of one(or more) of the second compression rings is installed upside down on a piston.

While it is called the second compression ring, it is really the final oil scraper ring and does little to seal compression, but a bunch for final oil control.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2012, 09:32 PM
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well i guys i found the problem finally

I installed anew short block with a new valvetrain too

so today i dissect my old block and find that the pins were missing on one of the pistons, the rings seemed fine though

the cylinder wall on that piston had 3 really deep straight cuts, i mean so deep that the block is worthless

I know this is old, but all this comes up on a google search, this thread will really help out someone one day if they bother to read 3 pages
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Old 08-23-2012, 09:47 PM
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Do you have umberella type seals, or other seals that need to be retained over the guide? I think you have one or two valve seals of the passenger side not properly retained. My guess.

PatM

Oops!

I responded but didn't realize there 3 pages here. Glad you found yor issue.

Last edited by PatM; 08-23-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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