My first 350 build - Page 4 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 06:27 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by kentactic View Post
I like the idea. If i can get away with a cast rotating assembly thats cool. On my CRX on nitrous id launch around 3k and stay 3/4 throttle until it hooked up and then go WOT to spray. It was on a WOT switch.

Will 110 save me some money on parts or is it more of a safety thing. For example will running 110 with a good top end make it capable of running a cast assembly?
Let me put it to you this way.

1. cast pistons and cast crank will take a LOT OF POWER.
2. $1000 race forged "Nitrous pistons" will not replace required fuel octane to avoid detonation. The result is the same...Busted burned up pistons.
The bill will just be higher.
3. Detonation must be avoided when hitting a motor HARD WITH NITROUS.
good high octane fuel that resists detonation is a key component.

You can break a cast pistons and you can break a forged race piston.
The reason why you broke it is exactly the same. Abnormal combustion. Excessive shock or excessive heat.

cast pistons can take all kinds of pressure, but cannot take pressure shock (detonation)
one is pushing hard on the piston, the other is smacking it with a hammer.
pressure shock-detonation and excessive-abnormal heat is what needs to be avoided.


I like the idea. If i can get away with a cast rotating assembly thats cool. On my CRX on nitrous id launch around 3k and stay 3/4 throttle until it hooked up and then go WOT to spray.


This is a stratagy mistake... make the car hook right from the starting line. launch the car at a very high rpm to avoid nitrous shock. Over torqing the engine, bending connecting rods.
You could have covered the 1/4 mile qucker, using a smaller shot all the way down the track.
It's hard to play catchup.
A auto trans with a 5000 rpm race converter allows you to launch at a high rpm as opposed to launching at say 3000-3500
rpm. ( you are going to over torque-mechanicaly shock the rods and crank with a big shot, from a low rpm)
Tires that hook are essential.
A turbo car is not nessessarily easier on the motor than nitrous.
Nitrous is very easy on the motor when and as long as combustion is NORMAL. It is very hard on the motor when combustion is not normal and a turbo is no more forgiving when things do go bad.

    Advertisement

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 11-23-2012 at 06:53 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 07:00 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
There is nothing wrong with adding a set of basic forged pistons to your cheap near stock nitrous motor.

But again this will not save your &&^%, and is not a substitute for good knock resistant fuel. (high octane)

If you want to build a strickly pump gas big shot powerfull nitrous motor, build it with a LOW COMPRESSION RATIO
just as you would a pump gas roots blower motor.

Methanol is a really good pwerfull high octane fuel, relatively cheap.

But when methanol is used for the nitrous fuel, it is hard to tune for , for a few reasons.

But when the motor is powered by methanol (methanol carb) and high octane gasoline is used for the nitrous systems fuel.
its easier to tune for,,... ( And very very effective)

Conversly water/methanol injection is very effective too. say with a gas motor/gas nitrous system ...

Water is very good at cooling the charge and taming combustion.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 11-23-2012 at 07:21 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #48 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 07:42 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
If you can build a basic 400hp 350, you can double it with nitrous and race gas.

If you can build a 350 hp 350 junk motor with a few selected nitrous friendly parts
you can double it with nitrous and race gas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #49 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 08:23 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 59
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 597 Times in 546 Posts
A 750-800 hp sbc built w/junk parts or "normal" 400 hp parts? Sounds like a short fuse at best. I could maybe see half again as much (500-600 hp MAX), not double the hp.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #50 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 08:48 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
When excessive heat and pressure is avoided the added power is not very hard on the block or mechanicals.
"normal 400hp parts" Some of the parts I would pick would be specificly specialized for the nitrous application but no more
expensive than your "normal parts". You need to apply the nitrous but avoid excessive cylinder pressure spike.

Most people get this wrong. And needlesly bust expensive parts.

There is no problem doubleing the power with nitrous, when you go about it right.
I'm no speaking of theoretical or could be or possible. I am speaking from experience.
Both what happens when things are done right and what happens when ever and only if things are not done correctly.
When using a big big shot the window of error is small reguardless of the price of the parts.

Again,, when done right the engine makes big power, does not hurt parts and lives a long time.
Some simple routine maintenance is required-advised. But it is simple cost effective.
If you can assemble it, you can maintain it.

Remember, if it melts down, you broke one of the rules/ laws of physics.
Its that simple.

I never use any "trick parts"... My trick is sound engineering.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 11-23-2012 at 09:17 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #51 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 09:28 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
If/when you choose to build a expensive so called bullet proof motor, you had best be fully prepared
to waste that money spent if you make a simple boo boo on a big shot.

Cause it will come unglued. How many of those are you gong to build and keep smiling?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:02 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: south carolina
Age: 34
Posts: 67
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
I dont know but if this was my build I would start with car get one that runs so dont have sit in a buddy shop go ahead and fix all the weak points in car because dont care what car you buy with 600 hp you will be replacing stuff axles gears tires shocks suspension drive shaft you not just going drop 600 hp in and go wish it was like that but all you going do is smoke off some tires and still prob get out run by ur neon if you want the motor to be 600 hp.with 200 to 300 shot and stay together it will cost more than 3500 and I would never. Put 300 shot on gm block I would be using dart I have seen what happens when one comes apart with 200 shot and it wasent pretty can only imagine 300 just my 2cents and there is a lot of hidden cost to a motor like that also with timing box to retard good trans for that power nitrous stall big carb by time you done you will have more in the car than you think it happens to use all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #53 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:22 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 66
Posts: 1,515
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 153 Times in 139 Posts
We run 114 race gas when we use the bottle on our BBC 632. But a clear understanding of how hard nitrous is on parts also come into play.No way do we run the bottle from over 2,500 out the back door.In fact the button and how long the nitrous is run is on a timer.Mid lap using nitrous of only .002 netted in the 1/8 4.50's@ 150 mph in a RED.
I disagree it's hard to play catch up.In my career I can tell you a number of times I lost to being mph'er.

I totally agree with Cobalt in that 800 hp on a stock block is risky best case or not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #54 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:36 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
I have hit a stock GM SB block and GM cast crank with a 600hp shot and make over 1300hp.
When the tune is right, it lives. When the tune is wrong it comes unglued and a SHP block will not change that.

Ive done this (doubled the horsepower with nitrous) with a real simple BBC stock cast crank forged pistons too. You have to actually do something wrong to bust a motor with nitrous. Its that simple.

When we did the SBC the only time we had problems at all was when the tune was wrong.
Some will tell you, you cannot sleeve a 400 block. I know for a fact this is BS. My friend got real good at it. (yup, when the tune was wrong, just like I said would happen, when the tune is wrong.)

I'll say it again, the same as I told him will happen.. When the tune is wrong you will bust parts. When the tune is right
you will not bust parts and you will go fast, without havoc. And not bust parts. I've proven it before and he proved it too.

Note this stock GM sb block had 4 bolt splayed caps added and quality machining but was other wise stock.
The crank was stock GM cast with proper preparation and Cryo treat. "iced"
At tear down inspection, The only time there was even a hint of stress was when the tune up was not right.

Never had a block or crank failure on any other nitrous motor. I have no problem doubling the horsepower on nitrous.

I like "reliable power" and do not use expensive parts.

if you want risk free, you are in the wrong hobby and best stay on the porch.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 11-23-2012 at 11:00 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #55 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 10:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: south carolina
Age: 34
Posts: 67
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts
I would like to see a stock engine take that how long did that stay together and why build a 700 hp engine with stock bottom end that you going put 600 shot on
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #56 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2012, 11:09 PM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by idontdrivericeieatit View Post
I would like to see a stock engine take that how long did that stay together and why build a 700 hp engine with stock bottom end that you going put 600 shot on
It's called going real fast on a limited budget.
When the tune was wrong it stayed together for less than 8.60 seconds.....lol

When the nitrous tune up was right,,, it ran and ran and ran and went like hell.

Once the tune up was right, tear down insepection revealed no stress evidence.
Everything looked pristene and stayed that way. Routine race motor maintenance is required just like you would do to maintain any race motor.
Durability was and is not a problem.

As far as I know this motor is still going. It was sold and we lost track of it.

This motor ran on Methanol,, with race gas on the nitrous side.
We could not make methanol work on the nitrous side. (there are reasons for that)
this was a simple off the shelf single stage direct port Race nitrous system with just a timing retard and a delay box
to control activation time delay on launch.

My nitrous motors were all gasoline. race gas when over 300hp shot. I recomend race gas for anything over 180hp.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 11-23-2012 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #57 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:29 AM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 66
Posts: 1,515
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 153 Times in 139 Posts
20 yrs of 9.90 racing where N/A was used with a glide/brake.Those launches are as hard or harder than nitrous.Pretty much all strokers.Good friend of ours lost his good engine early in the season.Forced him to race a cast crank engine.He held his breath on each launch for the whole season.That thing was a grenade with the pin pulled.Torn it down at the end of the yr and junked it.It was trash.

Point being is we shouldn't advise guys of our high risk adventures many of which have only enough money for the one engine they are asking about.Thing with that high risk is then it is much better to be "lucky" than good.The idea of what? At first stated 800hp and then 1300 hp on a stock block/cast crank is just not logical.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #58 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:42 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 105
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
This is a stratagy mistake... make the car hook right from the starting line. launch the car at a very high rpm to avoid nitrous shock. Over torqing the engine, bending connecting rods.
You could have covered the 1/4 mile qucker, using a smaller shot all the way down the track.
It's hard to play catchup.
Sorry i should have specified it was a street car. Spraying on street tires on the street out of the hole isnt an option. Doing that would just send it directly to redline faster then a street bike revs up. A smaller shot would have helped for the first couple gears but the top end really did makeup for it. I remember racing a moderatly modified EVO. He destroyed me out of the hole and at about half track i went by him like he was standing still.

Last edited by kentactic; 11-24-2012 at 10:59 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #59 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:50 AM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 105
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
If/when you choose to build a expensive so called bullet proof motor, you had best be fully prepared
to waste that money spent if you make a simple boo boo on a big shot.

Cause it will come unglued. How many of those are you gong to build and keep smiling?

Yep, i am doing my best with what little i know and the machinist to get it right regaurdless of the fact that im putting expensive parts in it. He said he is going to bore it a tad more then typical to make room for expansion for one example.

The machinist is very adamant that i use H beam rods for the power im looking for.

If i get away with 2k in the bottom end i think im lookin good. As some have said previously its not going to be cheap for what im trying to do. Its looking like a $5k motor on a good day. Its ok though. I know what i want, and im going to make it happen the best way i know how.

Last edited by kentactic; 11-24-2012 at 10:58 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #60 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2012, 10:58 AM
F-BIRD'88's Avatar
Yada Yada Yada
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 9,571
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 337 Times in 334 Posts
You r going to kill yourself or someone, racing at that power level with crap street radials.

Get some tires that have traction. The M/T ET streets work real good. Its not worth dieing over.
Motors are replace able. If you make a boo boo and smoke a low buck motor, who cares... Stay save.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My next project small block 350 chevy smokeb1 Engine 0 01-18-2012 08:53 AM
350 build questions, looking for 300-350 hp Jaiden2010 Engine 18 06-23-2011 07:49 AM
350 Build Up Please Look Over SBC-S-15 Engine 14 07-11-2004 06:52 AM
350 build Captnscotty Engine 15 09-11-2003 09:04 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.