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Old 07-07-2007, 11:36 PM
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My first compressor piping/painting experience - lessons learned and questions!

Well, I am determined to do this no matter how it turns out!
For all those novices out there that want to give it a shot, i am proof that it is do-able, but it is certainly not a slam dunk. I've had a few hiccups, but overall i think ive accomplished quite a bit considering i havent done any of this before.

The project is a frame off resto on a 67 Camaro. I bought it after most of the tough work was already done, (rotisserie/bead blasted etc) and plan to complete it in my home garage. It is at the primer stage and I thought I would give it one final primer coat and blocking before I attempt the base clear. I figured this would give me some practice with the gun and I would feel better knowing I blocked it even though it looks great to the eye the way it is. (it probably isnt).

Anyway, I bought a 230V 60 gallon compressor, its a Coleman, but probably made by Campbell Hausfied, they're all OEM'd under different brands, its the same as the Husky model at Home Depot. I only bought the Coleman brand because my daughter works at the local Home Hardware store, and I got her staff discount!
I used 3/4 black pipe for the main line and tee'd off with half inch for a sandblaster and another for paint, only to make it easier to install filters etc. without having to fart around with reducer fittings. Murphy's law says more connections = more potential leaks and restrictions.

I followed the advice on numerous threads I read on this board about how to lay out the lines....(thank you!) I have a 650 sq ft garage and ran about 50 feet of pipe before my tees and put 3 drains in with appropriate slopes toward them. I then connect with a 25 ft. 3/8 rubber hose to my gun. I will post pics when I get a chance if anyone is interested. Everything works really well and I have no moisture at the gun at all (so far). So here is my newbie advice for what its worth based on my experience.

First of all, do NOT use pipe dope! I could've swore i read somewhere that this was better than teflon tape since tape gets chewed up in the threads and can get caught in the line so i went with the dope. BIG mistake, particularly on the fittings close to the compressor - the stuff melts under heat and there were several leaks that i had to go back and tighten - no easy task when you dont put a lot of unions in!

Tip #2 - use unions! Particularly where your downlegs are so you can remove all of your components as a unit if you ever need to change your filter or whatever. Point is, plan ahead and always be thinking how you would take it apart if something went wrong.
I had to crank the pressure up to 120psi and open the drains to purge all the crap (pipe dope mostly that melted inside the pipes). There were a few fittings that leaked no matter how tight I cranked them, they were close to the compressor so I know the dope was the culprit, I replaced with teflon tape and the problem was solved. In hindsight, I wish I had used teflon for the whole system.

Oh - a thought about wiring it up.....even though its 240v, it only draws 15amps so 14 gauge wire would suffice with a 240v 15amp circuit.......but I ran 12 guage wire in case i want to upgrade in future to a 20 amp circuit...just need to swap the breaker. I didn't bother with a pony panel, just a direct line from my panel in the basement to a 240 receptacle in the garage. Yes, a 40 or 60 amp subpanel would have been easy to do, but trust me, you will be shocked at how all the costs add up, with breakers, fittings, wire, piping, paint, primer, reducer, catalyst, respirator, etc etc etc etc. I needed about 40 ft of wire to get to my garage, so going with a pony panel would require 6 or 8 guage wire, which would have added another $150 just for the wire, plus the breakers plus the panel so I passed.

Tip # 3 - Decide on a budget, and then figure out the best and safest way of doing it - don't be tempted to cut corners where safety is an issue. Ok enough compressor crap.

On to the paint, and my questions. I bought a 2K high speed primer - (brand is Mar-Hyde) from the local Napa store. I also bought a single stage urethane paint and catalyst to do my engine bay, rad support, hinges etc etc. I figured between the two I would get a good feel for the paint and my gun, and would give me a leg up on the finish paint. The primer is a 4 to 1 mix with a catalyst and the Napa guy said i didnt need a reducer, my primer gun is a 1.8mm. I was a bit leary since the directions on the can calls for a 4:1:1 mix of reducer and catalyst. But hey what the hell do i know, this guys been painting for 20 years.
Long story short, the stuff was so thick there is no way i could lay it down properly and eventually the gun just clogged so bad, I had to start over. The paint set really fast, i think i was only spraying for about a half hour before it became unworkable, even though the can said the pot life was 4 hours. So i mixed another cup and put a little less catalyst in, and it was better, but I still am not happy with the results, it just seems too thick, even after I removed the screen in the gun. No matter how i adjusted the gun, i could not get a decent spray pattern..when i cleaned the gun and shot thinner through it, it worked beautifully. So I think I am going back on Monday and get some reducer....luckily i was only practicing on the rad support and misc. parts..haven't started the actual car yet. The best i could do was a narrow strip rather than a spray, and the final finish came out pebbled, which I assume was probably too much air pressure, but when i dialed the gun down, i couldnt get enough paint. My gun is a Devilbiss HLVP starter kit. Think Im doing something wrong?

My second question relates to the quality of paint i should go for for the base clear. If it matters, the colour will be black, not metallic. The price difference in Dupont paint is almost 3 times more for Chroma vs their Nason brand. In Canada, your talking $95 a gallon vs $265.....add in all the extra stuff you need like reducers etc and the clear which is unique to each and your up to something like $250 vs $650 for the premium stuff. I've come this far, I dont want to skimp provided there would be noticeable improvements both in ease of application, as well as quality/longevity of the paint. The best advice the guy at Napa could give was..."well it all depends on what you want". Hello, news flash, I don't know what the hell i want, give me an intelligent response to what i thought was an intelligent question so i can make an informed decision! Jeez.

Anyhow, thats where I'm at. I apologise for the long winded post, but thought it might be helpful to someone im my position..just starting out.....so what should i do with the primer..go with a reducer? and the base clear...Nason good enough? Not a daily driver by any means but not show quality resto either.
Thanks guys!

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Last edited by mpaq; 07-07-2007 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 04:56 AM
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What to do with the primer, what to do with the primer....lets see here.....what would MARTINSR say to do with the primer........
Personally, mpaq, I would put it on the shelf, clean off what is already on the car, and decide on what system I was gonna use. It sounds like youve decided on DuPont, so in that case, I would start out by going to the DuPont distributor and buying some DuPont primer. The MarHyde may work under DuPont stuff, but then again it may not. I wouldnt take that chance. I like to stick with one system, metal-to-clearcoat, that way, theres less chance of incompatibility issues. Obviously the primer needs reducer to flow out through that gun, so Id probably get some reducer, in case I decided to use it painting my toolbox or something Im not familiar with DuPonts numbers cuz I use PPG, but I think you need to start over and stick with one brand. Its not that much more money and considering how much youll spend on paint, itd be a shame to have it peel off 6 months from now cuz ya tried to save a few dollars on primer.
As far as the wiring goes, my compressor is about 15 amps also, and I had about a 50 foot run, like yours, but I used #10, and considered #8. But I never like using the minimum wire size.
Other than that, it sounds like youve got it rolling your way. Dont forget to get a filter to use right at the gun when painting also. A little moisture can ruin a lot of good work!
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:00 AM
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Hi thanks for the input.
The Napa chain is a Dupont distributor - he insisted he sells this primer often to body shops as a general purpose primer, regardless of the top coat, as long as it is urethane based. All i know is that the previous primer used was Omni SV...i emailed PPG and all they responded with was that it was a good quality primer that should be followed with a urethane topcoat...no other advice or warning as to compatibility issues with other systems so I assumed I would be ok with this primer, which I still may be, just need to get it reduced so I can spray it properly.
As far as a filter at the gun, I used an oil and water separator that seemed to work well.... i have an inline dessicant type i was going to use for the base/clear.

Last edited by mpaq; 07-08-2007 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 07-08-2007, 08:51 AM
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paint and primer

Check out this site for good quality paints and primer at fair prices,im doing a 78 camaro now and they will even send you instructions on how to use it mixong,reduceing,ect. ect.[url]www.smartshoppersinc.com They will ship it right to your door.

Last edited by schall1965; 07-08-2007 at 08:53 AM. Reason: the link i posted had ship in it
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Old 07-08-2007, 09:52 AM
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FYI - The amount of hardner will NEVER be the way to make a material spray out better or give you longer pot-life. That is what the function of the reducer is and you need a reducer made for the temperatures you're shooting in.

You created yourself a huge problem by changing ratios of
catalyst to primer. You now have material that may never harden properly and will bond differently based on application and will be a failure point for the topcoat - as your topcoat paints are only as good as what is underneath.

My suggestion is to sand off the materials already sprayed and reprimer with the correct mix of primer to catalyst to reducer.
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Old 07-08-2007, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo_The_Dog
FYI - The amount of hardner will NEVER be the way to make a material spray out better or give you longer pot-life. That is what the function of the reducer is and you need a reducer made for the temperatures you're shooting in.

You created yourself a huge problem by changing ratios of
catalyst to primer. You now have material that may never harden properly and will bond differently based on application and will be a failure point for the topcoat - as your topcoat paints are only as good as what is underneath.

My suggestion is to sand off the materials already sprayed and reprimer with the correct mix of primer to catalyst to reducer.
Thanks, but not a problem as i didnt spray anything on the car, was just practicing on the rad support and an old gas tank. So you're saying that adding reducer does dual duty...thins the viscosity as well as extends the pot life? I just cant understand why the guy would not have sold me reducer...makes me really nervous about trusting him on his base/clear recommendations.....
im learning the hard way, but in the end, i guess thats the best way!
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Old 07-08-2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpaq
Thanks, but not a problem as i didnt spray anything on the car, was just practicing on the rad support and an old gas tank. So you're saying that adding reducer does dual duty...thins the viscosity as well as extends the pot life? I just cant understand why the guy would not have sold me reducer...makes me really nervous about trusting him on his base/clear recommendations.....
im learning the hard way, but in the end, i guess thats the best way!
Heat and humidity ulitmately control how fast a catalyzed material kicks off but a reducer will slow it down. They normally sell a range of reducers - slow for high temps -
medium for mid temps - fast for cool temps

I'd imagine the recommendation for not using reducer for fill primer is that a lot of people like to shoot it without reducer to fill imperfections for block sanding.
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Old 07-08-2007, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rambo_The_Dog
Heat and humidity ulitmately control how fast a catalyzed material kicks off but a reducer will slow it down. They normally sell a range of reducers - slow for high temps -
medium for mid temps - fast for cool temps

I'd imagine the recommendation for not using reducer for fill primer is that a lot of people like to shoot it without reducer to fill imperfections for block sanding.
I guess, but holy crap, you'd need a garden hose to get this stuff on. Im already using a 1.8 tip with no filter in the cup and it clogs in no time. Anyway off to Napa in the morning to get the reducer and all should be ok. I just finished spraying my firewall, inner fenders, rad support, heater box etc etc in black, and it came out great so at least I know its not me! I used the Nason single stage urethane and it was a piece of cake. It was already like water compared to the primer and the mix called for an 8:2:1 so I used a 1.3 tip and it looks good...although Im sure some of the gloss will dissappear as it cures overnight. I'm encouraged, and almost tempted now to use it for the whole car, but I think I will stay with base clear so I can buff out my inevitable screwups. Another thing that surprised me was very little overspray and fumes built up in the garage...again this is encouraging, but I am assuming the base/clear (particularly the clear) will be a different story...
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Old 07-26-2007, 02:12 PM
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Pics of my piping setup

In hindsight, there are a few things i would probably do a little differently, but I've painted the car 8 times (primer/base/clear) as well as tested out the sandblaster and it seems to work really well. No water whatsoever at the gun or in any of the drains...only place ive had to drain is the bottom of the tank. Its 3/4 black pipe which i ran across the wall then up and back, then down the adjacent wall, in order to accomodate the 40ft or so in my garage. Then i connect with another 30 feet of 3/8 rubber hose.
I came out of the compressor to a ball valve, then a regulator, then flex pipe that I had made at a hydraulics place, then it slopes down to a drain. Where it changes direction on the next wall, i put another drain and sloped it up from there to my drop for the guns. I tee'd off the drop with half inch to a union then to my guns. Because i didnt use a riser where i came off the main line, i used them where i tee off the drop just in case. There is also another drain at the bottom of the drop. I set the regulator to about 45lbs when painting, then adjust down at the gun (for hvlp)





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Old 07-26-2007, 10:23 PM
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I'm going to try and help you out here, but remember this is constructive criticism.

I'll point out your mistakes, no, we'll call it (miscalculations).

First, the pipe dope melting, something doesn't sound right, I turn my thermostat up to 78 degrees to paint, and have never had a problem with pipe dope, you might need to put some vents in and exhaust some of that hot air out.

Is your compressor 16 or 18 inches away from the wall so it can cool itself.

I run about 160 feet of 3/4'' black pipe with mostly pipe dope, I might have a little tape here and there, but pipe dope works for me.

I have three hose reels, and two other connections that i use.

I have two unions in the whole system.

I have zero leaks, leave it overnight at 120 lbs, still there in the morning.

To help keep it from leaking, take a small wire brush and some lacquer thinner and clean those threads first, there is some oil on them from the threading process, so clean and dry, then pipe dope, and good sized pipe wrenches will work.

Looking at your lines, it looks like you don't have enough slope to them.

Also i would put a short 2x4 between the wall and the pipe, helps the cooling.

You can't get the water out with one filter, if you could put a couple more beside it, it would get rid of it.

I'll post this then I'll go back and get you a picture of how to set up just before you hit the filter or filters your gonna put in.

All in all, you did a pretty commendable job, but you need to take it all out and restart. Yeah, I can hear you swearing at me right now, but remember, i'm here to help.

I'll stick to the airlines right now, I don't want to overload you.

Rob

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Old 07-26-2007, 10:31 PM
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Picture # 22 and 23

http://www.1969supersport.com/paintroom.html

Rob

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Old 07-26-2007, 11:06 PM
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One more thing I would like to add here.

The test for airlines is sandblasting, yeah I know, me, I, I did this and I did that, makes you sick hearing it, but theres only one way to tell it.

If you can go through a 1000 lbs of sand through a pressurized sandblaster, like an eastwood $300 or $400 dollar type, without having a moisture problem with a $700 or $800 dollar two stage compressor, then you have it right.

As far as painting, that is secondary here, you plumb it so you can sand blast, wether you do or not, and you will never have a problem with paint.

Your air tools will last longer, because condensation in your air lines will turn into water, and water will pick up rust and that will go into your air tool.

The setup I have is without an airdryer, so it can be done.

Here we go, I again, I apologize for this, but I just went through 1100 lbs of sand with out an air dryer.

Anyway, I hope you can use some of this, good luck.

Rob

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Old 07-27-2007, 09:26 AM
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Hi Rob,
thanks for taking the time to provide some critique, i appreciate it. I know it is not perfect and I'm not defending the way ive done it, but to me its all about cost/benefits to making any changes. In this case, the "cost" is the opportunity cost of my time, not $$. The only statement you make that I would question is that i need to take everything out and start again Why would I do this when everything works? I do NOT have any water issues, not yet anyway and Ive painted the car 8 times in 75-80 degree temps in the garage. The lines are sloped more than they look in the pics, but even if this were an issue, there would be water showing up in the drain at the other end of the run (or somewhere) You're right, i havent really put the blaster through its paces enough to know that there never will be a water issue, and I'll be watching for this and will heed your advice. But I dont see the upside to taking it all out when Ive yet to have major issues with it. The pipe is supported by standoffs that sit away from the wall equivalent to a 2X4 so cooling here is not an issue, the actual compressor motor is about a foot away from the wall so I could probably benefit with more space there. Good advice on the pipe dope, i do have a small leak, but it is below where i put the union so should be an easy fix. I know i have a weak link in the filter ive used for painting, but again, it worked and along with an inline water separator at the gun, i had no moisture at all when i painted the car. As for filtering, who knows, i may have gotten better results with something that filters better than 20 microns...i believe 5 is the accepted norm for painting. I dont do a lot of paint, but if I do in future, my plan is to use the filter thats there for the sandblaster only and upgrade to a better one for the paint line. Im on a slow phone line now, but when i get the chance I'll visit your site and look at all your pics....
thanks Rob.

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Old 07-27-2007, 01:30 PM
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MPAQ, sounds like your system is working pretty good, I didn't think the pipe was away from the wall that much, and it didn't look like much of a slope, I was wrong.

The things that I look at, is the price of paint, and the time to do rework, because of a problem with the airlines, thats why I'm cautious.

I have a lot of interest in air lines, and I read everything I can on it.

I have been bead and sandblasting for myself and a couple of friends for quite a few years.
I used to have have trouble with moisture in the bottom of the sandblaster, not water, just moist sand, and thats where all the airline research started.

Putting air lines and inline filters in the right way takes some planning and a real commitement, it takes some time to do it right, but when a hobbist working at home has a paint problem, if the lines are right, then thats just one less thing to worry about.

We don't have the luxury of asking a co-worker, hey come over here and look at this, whats wrong. So to me, I try to eliminate any room for error right up front.

When your finishing up a real nice paint job, thats when a guy will get hit with, whats going on here.

Anyway, just trying to help.

Rob

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Old 07-27-2007, 02:01 PM
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I hear ya Rob, thats why these boards are a great resource particularly with motivated members such as yourself that are generous enough to share their experiences with people just getting into the hobby. I would have been screwed without these threads and in fact read most if not all of your posts before putting in the piping system that I did. I, like a lot of other novices, would have been tempted to take the easy way out and use PVC or no lines at all, other other than rubber hose but realized after reading all the discussion that it would be just asking for trouble.
So although im not quite there yet, for my purposes so far, the system has suited me well.
One thing i will ask you since you've been blasting for years....i want to do an aluminum intake manifold and only soft media i can find locally is glass bead. I assume sand is too agressive and will pit the finish. Someone told me to use crushed walnut shells but I cant find them around....glass bead is readily available at the local hardware store. Should I go with that for the aluminum and just use sand for all my basic bracketry?
thanks!
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