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Old 08-09-2004, 07:21 PM
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Napa Crossfire Paint

I am getting ready to paint my car and these posts have been very helpful. I was just wondering if anyone has tried the Crossfire products that Napa is selling. I was 1st planning on using an etching primer (15210). The front clip of the car is bare metal with some body putty. The rest of the car has been sanded down to original primer or scuff sanded if the paint was halfway decent. I was then going to spray their 2K primer (15221) and coat with an acrylic enamel. Is a sealer necessary between the 2K and the topcoat. Any help is appreciated.
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Old 08-09-2004, 08:33 PM
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there's a couple of threads from just a few days ago on this...Napa paint is Martin Senior or Senour or something like that...we've got a guy here named MartinSR who popped up at the same time I was spraying that stuff for the first time.

do a search and you should find the info you are looking for.

hth
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Old 08-10-2004, 04:13 AM
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I would up grade and kill two birds with one stone.

I would get Nason ( Dupont) epoxy instead of an etch coat and with their 2k primer you won't need to spray with a sealer unless for uniform coverage.

Nason or Omni or Limco will be a much better product line to use
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Old 08-10-2004, 05:58 PM
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have you tried it

BarryK, Have you tried the crossfire paint? It is made by Martin Senour and I thought they were a reputable company. I am new to painting and I just want to get a decent product. As far as etch vs. epoxy I have read a lot of posts and it seems that people are split between which one to use. With that, is one easier and more forgiving to apply?
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Old 08-10-2004, 06:17 PM
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Its an OK product, I shot it twice as one of the guys I hired was a
MS rep and he had some samples, we srayed 2 8N's with it.
It s your check book!
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Old 08-10-2004, 06:37 PM
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Jerry, I found Cross/FIRE to be very user friendly, VERY user friendly. Every "quality", Synthetic enamel, acrylic enamel, urethane SS, and basecoat. They were all very user friendly. But that is all I can say about it. I have no idea about longevity and how it squares up against other "value lines" like OMNI or NASON.

The etch primer is a different story, that is a great product. And in fact, it is the VERY SAME product you would find in the high end line under part number 8847 in the Martin Senour line (which costs twice as much, the marketing dept. plays us like string puppets)

The urethane primer is "ok" for a value line product as well. I found that the extra money spent on something like 5102 is very well spent. The 5102 is about twice the cost but it fills much better and has a built in guide coat, it is a very nice primer. If you don't need any fill and don't plan on surfacing the thing, the 15221 will do the job just fine. DON'T BOMB IT ON, it will solvent pop. But you do have to abuse it a lot to do that. Spraying it anywhere near correct it works very well.

By they way to clear something up. Martin Senour doesn't "Make" anything. It is simply a label Sherwin Williams uses on their products that are sold thru NAPA parts stores. The exact same products are sold in S-W stores with a different label on the can.
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Old 08-10-2004, 09:33 PM
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thanks guys

This site is full of information and I appreciate your help. Before I found it I was trying to figure out what/how to paint my cuda, who made what paint, etc. It has just been setting for 5+ years. I did not want to spend a ton of money. I am just using this car to try hone my autobody skills and of course make a ton of mistakes on the way before I tackle my real project. The mechanics of a car to me are easy, but the autobody part has been a challenge. I plan on taking all the advice I can to heart and keep learning. If funds were better I would try some of the higher end products and I am sure to on my next project, but for now I just want to get a decent final product.
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Old 08-12-2004, 12:53 AM
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Martin Seneour paint is made by Sherwin Williams. I use to work at an Auto Value parts store, and if we goofed up and forgot to order some InterMix components, we called Napa, had them cross over our part number, and used theirs...and they mixed their Crossfire paint with the same components as the MS paint. The difference between Crossfire and the standard MS line is the mixing formula. For example, Black WA8555 GM BB/CC.

Crossfire: 700 Grams U187 Black
28 Grams U95 UHS Yellow
20 Grams U87 UHS Orange

MS/SW: 748 Grams U187 Black

This is just an example...I can't exactly remember the formula or the U###,s...actually the U numbers were SW numbers...I think NAPA used 4 digits like 7469...but anyway...when I mixed the paint for my car at Auto Value, I poured it directly out of the can. After I quit my job, I went to NAPA and had them mix me Crossfire, and they actually had to mix it.

A little off the subject, but possibly a little informative?
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:44 AM
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What you found is the interesting fact that there is no such thing as "Black" in auto paint. There is no company that makes a true black, there are some that are blacker than others, but none are the true black we had prior to the late seventies when they took carbon out of the paint (well most of it). I remember it well, I was working at a restoration shop and a number of guys bought cases of black before the change for future cars.

Now, a "black" is actually a very dark blue, red, or brownish color.

That GM code is the rare example where the S-W toner matches right out of the can. It's tint, just happens to match the tint of the Gm color (well it sort of does). Most every "black" on factory cars are actully not even close to black, they can be WAY off. There are fomulas for every one of them. One brand of paint may have a totally different formula than another brand. For that matter, you may look up a black for a Subaru or something and find that the Cross/FIRE has only one toner while the S-W has a formula of three.

Now, the difference between M-S and Cross/FIRE isn't that it uses a different formula it is that it is a different product all together. The Cross/FIRE and M-S Tec/BASE for instance are mixed on completly different mixing banks. Other than the dry pearls which are the same (but sell for different prices..marketing dept. ) NOTHING else on the systems interchange. Look at it as Cross/Fire is a Nova, while M-S is an Impala. And S-W (look at it as GM) doesn't just "make" them, they ARE S-W. The S-W equivlant product is called "Dimention". It's componants would cross right over to Cross/FIRE being they are exactly the same product. S-W "Ultrabase" would cross right over to M-S "Tec/BASE" because they are exact same products.


M-S toner #9850
IS S-W U7109, it only has a different label on it. There is no M-S paint product that the identical product can't be found in another can with the S-W label on it. When NAPA was newly formed they wanted exclusive names on their parts and paints. Every single thing they sell there is made by a big name manufacture. "NAPA shock" is Monroe, "NAPA battery" is Exide, "Martin Senour paint" is Sherwin Williams, "United" brake parts are Raybestos. etc. Sherwin Williams had just bought out a small varnish company in 1936 when NAPA asked them for a paint line. They used the Varnish company "Martin Senour" name on the new NAPA paint line, simply putting it on the cans of S-W products and selling them to NAPA.

I use to do "change overs" where I would go into a "Big A" store for instance and change the labels on the cans from "Rogers" (in the old days, another S-W label) to M-S or from S-W to M-S (S-W dropped the Rogers label and just started marketing the S-W label thru Big A) labels.

This really has nothing what so ever to do with this thread but since you brought it up I thought I would try (try ) to clear it up. The way products are marketed are interesting to me and I thought it may be to you as well.

Last edited by MARTINSR; 08-12-2004 at 08:09 AM.
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Old 08-12-2004, 05:46 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MARTINSR
[B]What you found is the interesting fact that there is no such thing as "Black" in auto paint. There is no company that makes a true black, there are some that are blacker than others, but none are the true black we had prior to the late seventies when they took carbon out of the paint (well most of it). I remember it well, I was working at a restoration shop and a number of guys bought cases of black before the change for future cars.

Now, a "black" is actually a very dark blue, red, or brownish color

***********************************************
Who took carbon out of paint????

I have been working with all the major pigment grinders and suppliers in USA and overseas the last 6 months trying to make a Black-Black with out adding color, they said it could not be done, I said it could and I lost.
First if the black is 100% carbon suspended in resin (as black as you can get) in certain light you will see shades of gray or a faint brown.
The Blackest Blacks today is PPG and Spies and Dupont and all you can do to get it "Blacker" is add blue to the carbon and those three companies are exact or very close in formulation as to the amount of blue added and a foot note I could not better the black
and had to settle for a as good.
Also another footnote is black gets blacker by grinding it more times and making the carbon finer Best is three times, and the paint companies don't like paying the pigment companies the extra grinding fees thats one reason for the lack of blacks and so many brown blacks.

Last edited by BarryK; 08-12-2004 at 05:59 PM.
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:06 PM
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There was a dramatic change in blacks around 1979. This is as I remember, I was only in the business for a three years and didn't know dittly, maybe I was gulible.

I remember this dramatic change taking place, could there have been a reduction of the carbon? I was using PPG at the time (well Ditzler ) and that is what the rep told me. So, I have to wonder, maybe you can clear it up. Did PPG make a difference at that time in regards to the pigment purchased, going to a cheaper less ground? Or did they remove some of the carbon?
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:43 PM
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Some times only way to get to truth in this business is from the supplier they buy from.
I herd the same stories you did.
Combinations of less carbon and less grinding.
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