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Navel Jelly ?

43K views 58 replies 22 participants last post by  roger1 
#1 ·
What is navel jelly I have heard of a couple of references to it for rust removal,but what is it? I'm in Canada so it may be named something else here or probably not available :mad:
Thanks
 
#3 ·
onovakind67 said:
Navel jelly is a close relative of toe jam...
And toe jam does as good a job at removing rust :D

Here is a suggestion to remove rust with electrolysis
http://antique-engines.com/electrol.asp

I have seen pictures of folks cleaning whole frames in this manner.

What are you trying to de rust?
mikey
 
#4 ·
Big Dog, Navel jelly is just one of several preparations containing Phosphoric acid to dissolve and remove rust, kinda slow going but with Patience it will work. Navel jelly, and similar products, has been around for many years and is sold at hardware stores, auto parts and most building supplies. For light rusting this works really well but for heavy rust you need to remove as much as possible first then apply the product, give it ample time to work while keeping it from drying out along with wire brushing, this will usually need to be repeated several times. You may find that other methods will work better for your particular case but this stuff is so cheap and simple to use that it certainly deserves a try anyway. :)
 
#6 ·
It is far, FAR! better to remove the rust than to just cover it up! Removing rust is the proper way to do this because if you just cover it up it very well may come back to haunt you and anyway you look at it if you just cover the rust it is still there and you will aways have rusty parts! :nono:
 
#7 ·
oldred said:
It is far, FAR! better to remove the rust than to just cover it up! Removing rust is the proper way to do this because if you just cover it up it very well may come back to haunt you and anyway you look at it if you just cover the rust it is still there and you will aways have rusty parts! :nono:
Out of my experience, there is a time and a place for everything. I've resto'd many cars and in the process, removed rust, removed rusty panels and fabricated new, and I've SEALED and NEUTRALIZED rusty panels, all with great success over the years. The products mentioned above don't just "cover" it up. They chemically react with the rust not unlike gun bluing chemically reacts with gun metal to provide metal protection.

George
 
#8 ·
This has been , and will continue to be, argued both ways but covered up rust is just that covered up! It may be "neutralized", "converted" or "killed", whatever they want to call it, but it is still there and this is nothing more than a band-aid approach. I don't see how anyone can call a repair that leaves rust in place "restored", JMO on that one and others may see it differently but I do not want rust on my car in any form hidden, converted or otherwise and I think few people would disagree that removal is the best way. Even if you do manage to stop the rust from getting worse by using these "cover up" products the rust that was already there is still there and and you will STILL have a rusty car whether you can see the rust or not! This fellow asked about rust removal products which are for the purpose of PERMANENTLY dealing with the rust and will provide for a proper rust free repair and not something that will leave rust there only out of sight.

BTW, ever get a gun barrel wet and forget to dry it? Not very much protection there.
 
#9 ·
oldred said:
This has been , and will continue to be, argued both ways but covered up rust is just that covered up! It may be "neutralized", "converted" or "killed", whatever they want to call it, but it is still there and this is nothing more than a band-aid approach. I don't see how anyone can call a repair that leaves rust in place "restored", JMO on that one and others may see it differently but I do not want rust on my car in any form hidden, converted or otherwise and I think few people would disagree that removal is the best way. Even if you do manage to stop the rust from getting worse by using these "cover up" products the rust that was already there is still there and and you will STILL have a rusty car whether you can see the rust or not! This fellow asked about rust removal products which are for the purpose of PERMANENTLY dealing with the rust and will provide for a proper rust free repair and not something that will leave rust there only out of sight.

BTW, ever get a gun barrel wet and forget to dry it? Not very much protection there.
At the risk of starting a flame war here...I will agree with you that removing rust is the best approach and always will be, but as I said, there is a time and a place for everything. I'm sure that your rides are not Riddler contenders, and I'll bet I will find rust on your rides regardless of how diligent you are at removing it. Rust is inevitable...like age. Sometimes you just have to deal with it.

...and BTW back, I happen to be gun collector too, and bluing is reason your gun doesn't rust in your hand as we are speaking. Why do you think bluing is added to metal in the first place? It isn't for looks...

George
 
#10 ·
Here's one example of naval jelly: Permatex Rust Remover

http://www.permatex.com/products/automotive/cleaners1/specialty_cleaners/Permatex_Rust_Dissolver_Gel.htm


It does work extremely well but is very slow, the hood and decklid on My Son's 70 Nova has some serious rust pitting and these panels were my first test using the naval jelly. I applied a thick coating of the stuff then covered it with thin plastic to keep it wet and allowed it to set overnight. The next day the jelly had turned black and I then used a red scotchbrite and scrubbed 75% of the rust loose then added more jelly and let it set for a few hours lightly misting it with water a few times to keep it wet and working. After a few more scubbings the rust had all loosened up and rinsed right off with water. The stuff works, it's cheap, but it's slow.
 
#11 ·
Well im not going to get into the debate with you guys on whos way is better,but,BIG DOG,there is a thread floating around here on this very same subject.I do not know how to post a link,but if you use the search button,and type in Randy Ferguson,you will find all the info you need.He did a indepth write up on this subject.Follow hit instructions to the letter and you will have no problems.If you use it the right way,I WILL WORK!!!!I have some pics of me doing the removal,before and after,and I can post them if you like.Hope that helps! :evil:
 
#13 ·
Big Dog, Navel jelly is just one of several preparations containing Phosphoric acid to dissolve and remove rust
==========================================================
Like oldred said, It's better to get rid of it one way or another instead of leaving it there. Cut it out, disslove it with phosphoric acid, or sand it out, but get rid of it if at all possible. Rust is called the cancer of steel. If you had a lump of cancer in your body, I bet you would prefer to have it removed rather than let it stay inside you, taking the chance that it will spread in the future.
I've seen the ads saying that it completely "encapsalates" the rust, preventing it from spreading. But what if it isn't completely "encapsalated"?
How does that movie line go?
"What we have here is a failure to communicate?"
In this case, what we have here is a pocket of rust in hibernation waiting to explode thru your paint.
FYI hydrochloric acid can be used also, and it seems to be quicker.
Check this thread out:rust remover :welcome:
 
#14 ·
gdubstub said:
At the risk of starting a flame war here...I will agree with you that removing rust is the best approach and always will be, but as I said, there is a time and a place for everything. I'm sure that your rides are not Riddler contenders, and I'll bet I will find rust on your rides regardless of how diligent you are at removing it. Rust is inevitable...like age. Sometimes you just have to deal with it.

...and BTW back, I happen to be gun collector too, and bluing is reason your gun doesn't rust in your hand as we are speaking. Why do you think bluing is added to metal in the first place? It isn't for looks...

George
Complete removing of the rust with a treatment,of your choice,immediatly afterwards is always the best. Yes, rust will find a way but if you do all you can and do it the right way it will take longer to happen.
Now about the guns. Bluing does not protect the metal of the gun if the gun is not maintained by cleaning and so on,period. If you disagree, I have a couple of guns I could show you.
 
#16 ·
Thanks guys I built a soda blaster and have been blasting all the paint off of my car .But it has been raining here and damp for the last month and a half and I noticed a few small spots of surface rust on the car .So I was reading another post where the guy (sorry don't remember who) used navel jelly and steel wool to get rid of some surface rust .Mine is just small spots that will sand right off as they are very light .I was thinking that after I wash the car down I will also go over it with navel jelly and steel wool to git rid of the small rust spots and the acid in the navel jelly would also neutralize any soda that may be missed .
What are your thoughts ?
Thanks
 
#17 ·
scrot said:
==========================================================
Like oldred said, It's better to get rid of it one way or another instead of leaving it there. Cut it out, disslove it with phosphoric acid, or sand it out, but get rid of it if at all possible. Rust is called the cancer of steel. If you had a lump of cancer in your body, I bet you would prefer to have it removed rather than let it stay inside you, taking the chance that it will spread in the future.
I've seen the ads saying that it completely "encapsalates" the rust, preventing it from spreading. But what if it isn't completely "encapsalated"?
How does that movie line go?
"What we have here is a failure to communicate?"
In this case, what we have here is a pocket of rust in hibernation waiting to explode thru your paint.
FYI hydrochloric acid can be used also, and it seems to be quicker.
Check this thread out:rust remover :welcome:
here we go again........ :evil:
 
#18 ·
Scrot, I know you mean well but IMO hydrochloric acid is a bit too strong. When using Phosphoric acid (a relatively mild acid) preparations the metal is transformed by chemical action and they leave a Zinc phosphate coating for rust protection. Hydrochloric acid however is much stronger and penetrates deeply into the metal where it starts a different chemical reaction that is hard to stop and it may cause far more damage than the rust it removes. The metal can become very weak and brittle from this reaction and because it eats so deeply into the metal it can be hard to neutralize, just something to think about.
 
#20 ·
navel jelly/soda blasting

navel jelly does work good.have you ever tried soda blasting?
I met a guy who builds soda blasting machines and sell them.
I am trying prep a model a and he did a door for me.not a bad job but if the panel is pitted you will have to more aggresive with it.I seen panels that he has donea year or so ago and its look like it was done today!He blasted a buddy of mine's 68 mustang complete car in about three or four hours!the car looked liked it did not ever had paint on it.Though i pass that along if any body needs more info let me know.Later
 
#21 ·
Yes I have most of the paint off of mine now the panels look like the day they were stamped out really cool!But there are other problems with soda that are not great when it comes to painting ...as Barry K pointed out after I had started mine .....isn't that the way :D
 
#22 ·
Navel jelly does not work well on heavy rusting, that is if you expect instant results. It does however work quite well given ample time and a Little effort (patience is the key here. :) ) even on heavier rust and it will work quickly on surface rust and almost instantly on flash rust.
 
#24 ·
You will damage the metal with muriatic acid (Muriatic acid is Hydrochloric acid, Muriatic is just the old name for it, they are the same thing) even if you only leave it a short time. You are getting the wrong chemical reaction plus it eats too deeply into the metal causing damage that will not be immediately apparent. I just can not believe that some one would intentionally contaminate their car body with hydrochloric acid! :pain: I am not a pro body man but I have seen first hand what hydrochloric (muriatic) acid contamination can do even to heavy metal parts and if this worked as good as it at first seems it would be common practice but it is not and for a very good reason, most people simply know better. This stuff will set in motion a chemical reaction that you will not want and that will be very hard to stop! IMHO keep strong acids as far away from your car as possible. :nono:
 
#25 · (Edited)
Something we can agree on, except "MR. Knowitall"

==========================================================Hydrocholoric acid or Muriatic acid does work at removing rust.
Just don't leave it on long and neutralize it with baking soda and water and finish it off with the automotive specific phosphoric acid solution.
Pheeww .............that wasn't so hard to understand. I feel better now. :welcome:
 
#26 ·
Scrot, It will remove rust but at the expense of the metal you treat. Once the Hydrochloric/Muriatic acid contaminates the metal it is not so simple to remove/neutralize and when you consider just how thin the part is you are working with it should be easy to understand why this should not be done. If even a tiny amount reaches an inaccessible area such as a seam you will have major problems sooner rather than later but even open areas will be affected in a very adverse way. Like I said before if this worked as good as it seems then everyone would be, and would have been for years, doing this but they don't because of the problems it will cause. I know some will yell "I do it all the time with no problems" but chemistry works the same for everyone and this will get you in the end. If someone insists on doing this to their car after being warned that's ok but please don't tell someone else to do it because it is a disaster in the making whether you believe it now or not. Hydrochloric acid is nothing new and it has been used for many purposes for far longer than cars have been around and it's properties are well known so don't you even wonder why people have not been doing this all along?
 
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