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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2006, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
If someone wants to use Hydrochloric/Muriatic acid fine it's their car and no one is telling them not to it's the guys who may read this and get the VERY mistaken idea that's ok that we are talking to. I have seen first hand what this kind of acid does to even heavy steel plate and just how hard is is to remove once contaminated so I can assure you that there is no way I would want this crap anywhere near my car.
Oldred, I have been reading this thread all along, and I have to say a big thank's to you, baddbob, adtkart, and all the rest that have given GOOD info on this subject. I have no clue when it comes to body work and if I was to read a post such as the one about toilet cleaner working well on rust removal, well I may just have tried it.

So thanks again for all the good info, and keeping people like myself out of trouble, my hats off to ya

Steve

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2006, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodit
Big Dog-what kid of problems are you having with the soda?
There are problems with adhesion after you soda blast. Look up some of Barry K's post awhile back he explained it well .I have been soda blasting and sand blasting my car it has been taking a while and the soda blasted areas are getting some small spots of rust .I thought that the soda would keep it from rusting and I believe that it has but it has been so damn rainy and damp this year .... which has contributed to the time this has taken too get done as it seems that every time that I'm off it is raining or trying to.I plan to wash it with soap and water to neutralize all the soda .Then I'm going to steel wool and navel jelly every thing to get rid of the small surface rust spots and hopefully the phosphoric acid will also help neutralize any soda that may be left behind.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2006, 02:48 PM
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I was able to find the navel jelly here after looking everywhere.I found it at home hardware it is called rust remover here (in Canada) and is a permatex product. They happened to have it listed in their computer as navel jelly.And they thought I was crank calling them when I asked for navel jelly........Hmmm maybe everyone else did also that's why they said they didn't have it !
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2006, 05:27 PM
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Big Dog, I am surprised that it was so hard to find, it has been around just about forever and I have seen it even in the cleaning goods section of a grocery store. I bought some at Wal-Mart not long ago but it was the permatex brand like the one you found. Navel jelly is the original product but, like the permatex, it is sold under a variety of names.
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Old 07-14-2006, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrot
I've tried a cheleating chemical to remove the rust. I have two bags of the powder . It is slower, and the only thing preventing me from using it on everything is that you have to soak the item in a container of it, or continually circulate the solution on the item. I should find a pump that will flow at the right rate and use this exclusively.
Here's some info:http://www.cleanrust.com/rustsolveworks.html
Looks interesting enough. I was ready to buy some until I saw this, from the "How To Use Rust Solve" page:
Quote:
CAUTION: Do not use on Galvanize or Zinc or metals containing these. Rust-Solve will dissolve Galvanize and Zinc and these are dangerous toxic metals. All claims to the safety of Rust-Solve are void if any contamination occurs.
This won't be a problem for a lot of old car guys, but I work on a wide variety of years and models, so this product unfortunately won't make the cut!
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2006, 10:26 PM
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I have not tried this type of remover but it sure looks interesting. I am curious as to how it compares to the phosphoric acid based strippers for time to work? Looks like it would be completely safe for steel (with the exceptions mentioned by Crash).
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2006, 11:28 AM
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I ran across this thread while looking for a source for some phosphoric acid in larger quantities and lower price than those little hardware store bottles of Naval Jelly.

I have to weigh in with Oldred on the subject of hydrochloric acid versus phosphoric acid. The steel industry does use hydrochloric acid for "pickling", but that doesn't mean it's suitable for rust removal at home or typical body shop.

Hydrochloric acid and iron will give you some iron chloride, which is good for etching copper or producing hydrochloric acid and iron oxide, usually known as rust. Heat and water are all it takes to go from iron chloride to iron oxide and HCl. That's what the steel industry does to regenerate the hydrochloric acid. You're trading one form of rust for another (iron III oxide for iron II oxide and back), unless you can guarantee you get every bit of HCl AND iron chloride out.

On the other hand, iron phosphate doesn't want to go back. Any phosphoric acid you fail to get out will not produce more rust, it will convert more rust to iron phosphate. When heated, instead of producing more rust and more acid, the iron phosphate just provides a better rust-resistant coating.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2006, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
a source for some phosphoric acid in larger quantities and lower price than those little hardware store bottles of Naval Jelly.
Grouch, what did you find?
I've looked before.but didn't find any good sources.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2006, 03:52 PM
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OH Gosh! Please! Stop saying th R-word

For the best finish possible you must have the best preparation possible!!
Sometimes the best finish possible is not quite what we want. So, there are many ways to skin a cat. I just insist on pristine metal as a foundation on anything I'm putting 100's of hours into. And pretty good prep on the ones I'm not. The old get what you pay for, I guess.

Also an often overlooked part of your car when chemically stripping and cleaning is the seams (pinch welds). Getting chemicals in there were you can't get them out. I've seen beautiful cars with rust growing out of every crack. Just be clean! and be careful it is a foundation you're building.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2006, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrot
Grouch, what did you find?
I've looked before.but didn't find any good sources.
So far, not much.

http://www.interstateproducts.com/1_...er_pricing.htm
$42 per gallon but I can't find many details.

Most of my search results for phosphoric acid come up with tank car quantities or fertilizer or aquarium supplies (for altering the pH).

[Edited to add:]

Found "Aquamix Phosphoric Acid Cleaner" ($19.85 per gallon) at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...lance&n=228013
and http://www.aquamix.com/for_professio...4159&pgid=9833

According to the MSDS, it's 23% phosphoric acid. According to http://householdproducts.nlm.nih.gov...ds&id=13010007 Naval Jelly is 25% - 30% phosphoric acid (and contains some sulfuric acid, too). The Rust Dissolver Gel that Baddbob pointed to is 20% - 30% phosphoric acid, according to the MSDS. That gallon of Aquamix cleaner seems to have about the right amount of phosphoric acid, but it's not a gel so it will probably be tougher to keep it where you need it.

BTW, for reference regarding HCl versus H3PO4, see
http://www.jcse.org/Volume3/Paper21/v3p21.htm (especially "Figure 1 Variation of corrosion rate (mg dm-2 per day) with corrodent concentration for mild steel coupons in HCl solutions at 30C without inhibitor") and
http://www.p2pays.org/ref/22/21953.htm

Last edited by grouch; 08-13-2006 at 10:59 AM. Reason: more info
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2006, 06:21 PM
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2010, 02:58 PM
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Its A Brand New Raidiator

Hi Guy

Got this new rad. and it looks horrible. What the best product to make it nice and shiny

Will navel jelly for aluminum ge good

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
It is far, FAR! better to remove the rust than to just cover it up! Removing rust is the proper way to do this because if you just cover it up it very well may come back to haunt you and anyway you look at it if you just cover the rust it is still there and you will aways have rusty parts!
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 06-21-2010, 01:18 PM
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a good aluminum polish and some elbow grease...
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 06-21-2010, 01:41 PM
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Hey, I remember this thread. Funny Shooner revived this old thread since I'm about to need some Naval Jelly. I've got to get rid of some surface rust on my '55 hardtop project.

I think this was talked about, but the thread is 4 years old.
Is there a better way to buy a phosphoric acid remover in larger quantities than buying those small Naval Jelly bottles?
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