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Old 11-24-2011, 06:57 PM
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Need 383 stroker Help!

This is what I have...Scat 4340 Steel Crank, Clevite H bearing 10 rod & 10 main,Eagle H Beam Rod- 6 inch, SRP Pistons (Flat Top) - .40 over 1/16 top ring & second 3/16 oil ring
Heads- Trickflow Aluminum (64 cc combustion chamber) (195cfm)
Crane Camís 1.5 Roller Rockers
Intake: Edelbrock RPM Performer, Carb: Holley Street Advenger 670
Hooker Headers: 1 ĺ
Cam- Comp Cam: Xtreme Energy XFI Hydraulics .488 .483
Standard Hydralics Flat Tappet .224 .231

Car never seemed to run right (thought it was the old Q-Jet) Had friend take off heads to install rpm intake, found Vertical scratches in some of the cylinders, oil was black (changed oil at 1000 miles) only 2000 miles on engine. 3 of the 8 sparkplugs were carboned up with white stuff, With one head off and plugs out, motor is hard to turn over. Pistons had a lot of black build up on them. What does this sound like? Were do we begin? HELP!!!

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Old 11-24-2011, 09:05 PM
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sounds out of time to me....or not a hot enough ignition
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Old 11-25-2011, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LayLow50
This is what I have...Scat 4340 Steel Crank, Clevite H bearing 10 rod & 10 main,Eagle H Beam Rod- 6 inch, SRP Pistons (Flat Top) - .40 over 1/16 top ring & second 3/16 oil ring
Heads- Trickflow Aluminum (64 cc combustion chamber) (195cfm)
Crane Camís 1.5 Roller Rockers
Intake: Edelbrock RPM Performer, Carb: Holley Street Advenger 670
Hooker Headers: 1 ĺ
Cam- Comp Cam: Xtreme Energy XFI Hydraulics .488 .483
Standard Hydralics Flat Tappet .224 .231

Car never seemed to run right (thought it was the old Q-Jet) Had friend take off heads to install rpm intake, found Vertical scratches in some of the cylinders, oil was black (changed oil at 1000 miles) only 2000 miles on engine. 3 of the 8 sparkplugs were carboned up with white stuff, With one head off and plugs out, motor is hard to turn over. Pistons had a lot of black build up on them. What does this sound like? Were do we begin? HELP!!!
If the engine was still assembled, I'd say to do a leak down test to see what the ring seal looked like. Barring that, and judging by the descriptions you've given, it sounds to me like a ring seal/oil control problem. You can get this when using thin ring packs in a cylinder that has not been honed correctly for them and/or if the final hone wasn't done w/a torque plate in place, or if the engine has experienced severe enough detonation to pinch the ring in its land.

Plugs don't always have to look black and oily when there are problems w/oil contaminating the combustion chamber. Oil can also cause an ashy, off white-type spark plug deposit if there's not so much oil entering that it causes the plug to look wet w/oil. Some types of fuel and oil additives can cause deposits, too. To a lesser degree, loose valve stem to guide clearance can contribute to oil contaminating the combustion chamber.

Motor oil will turn black and that's normal. Turning black doesn't necessarily indicate a loss of lubricity. But if the oil turns black in a short amount of run time, I'd suspect there's oil being burned, causing the oil to become black from the ash/carbon formed by the oil being combusted. A non-functioning PCV system can contribute to oil contamination as well.

Scratches in the cylinder wall can be from left over deposits that weren't cleaned out before assembly. Blocks that are baked instead of hot tanked can have hard, crusty carbon deposits left inside the oil galleys, etc. It can come from the oil film being washed off the walls by carb flooding for instance, but those cases can be more of a wider "scuffing"-like pattern than scratches that look like they were done w/a fine line ballpoint pen. If the scuffing is way up at the top of the cylinder, I'd suspect no torque plate being used.

This isn't all the things it might be but will give some food for thought.
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Old 11-25-2011, 08:11 AM
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Thanks, I believe that we'll start at checking the cylinders for proper size, ready for some street fun, I hope this isn't a major money problem...
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Old 11-25-2011, 03:30 PM
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An assembled short block should turn over by hand with a torque wrench on the crank snout at 30 ft/lbs of torque or less. Pull the other head and see what you get with a torque wrench. If it frees up, then you have interference in the valvetrain. Either a valve kissing a piston or valve spring coil bind or a retainer hitting the valve stem seal or a rocker binding up on the stud due to a rocker slot that is too short.

If the crank is still hard to turn with the other head off, then it's disassembly time. You need to find out what's going on.

Assuming that you did not cut the block, your static compression ratio is 10.38:1 and you need about another 10 degrees of cam duration on the intake side to help prevent detonation.

After thinking about this, I would totally disassemble the motor and follow accepted procedures for reassembly. Begin by align honing or align boring the main saddle, then cut the block decks for the proper piston deck height to work with the thickness of your head gaskets to spec the squish at or below 0.050" (the distance from the piston crown to the block deck with the piston at top dead center is the piston deck height. Add this figure to the thickness of the head gasket to arrive at the squish figure). Having the four corners of the block equal to each other will go a long way toward sealing up the motor and making everything work together because the heads will be the same distance from the crank centerline front to rear, allowing the intake manifold to seal up without being lolly-gagged (a highly technical term). This will also go a long ways toward equalizing the static compression ratio in all cylinders, assuming the heads are cut correctly at the point of manufacture.

The tight squish should allow detonation-free operation on pump gas with your 10.38:1 SCR if squish is set at 0.035" to 0.045".

I wouldn't give you a nickel for all the flat tappet cams on the planet, much less be talked into running an "extreme" grind. You're risking the entire valvetrain for an additional 15 hp by running the extreme cam over a flat tappet cam with gentler ramps. Of course, a roller is the best way to go and all things considered, will cost the least and run the best.
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Old 11-25-2011, 09:42 PM
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TechInspector1

Going to follow you're advice on the steps to re-assemble...Didn't understand what u meant by flat tappet cam with gentle ramps, roller the way to go, Can you recommend different parts? What rear gears should I have? Also, how much HP should this set-up have? Thanks
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Old 11-26-2011, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LayLow50
Didn't understand what u meant by flat tappet cam with gentle ramps
In trying to get the maximum power from a given camshaft, some of the manufacturers have begun to yank the valves open and slam them shut to allow more open time for the valve, which results in a little more horsepower. This adds additional work to the already highly stressed interface at the camshaft lobe/lifter crown. It also adds a rattle to the lifters that won't go away. Look at the difference between the advertised duration versus the duration at 0.050" tappet lift. The difference between these two numbers will tell you how violent or how gentle the cam will be on the lifters.

Through the years, there have been different ways of expressing duration. Each mfg used his favorite tappet lift to begin counting the duration of any particular lobe. Years ago, everybody used something different. Then they all got their heads together and decided to compare grinds at 0.050" tappet lift. That's where you get the duration at 0.050 figure. They don't begin calculating duration until the tappet is 0.050" off the base circle of the cam lobe. Advertised duration is still noted, but you have to know where the mfg began his calculations from. On a flat tappet hydraulic cam, most of them use 0.006" tappet lift off the base circle. On a solid flat tappet cam, most of them will use 0.020" as a starting point.

If you think about it, you can see that a radical grind (talking rate of lift here) might have a 0.050" duration of 230 degrees and a advertised duration of 280 degrees. If you subtract one from the other, you can see that the difference is 50 degrees, 25 on the opening flank and 25 on the closing flank if we assume a symetrical cam for these purposes of teaching you. Most cams will be asymetrical, having different rates of valve movement from the opening side of the lobe as compared to the closing side of the lobe. We will disregard this for now and concentrate on finding a radical lift cam versus a mild lift cam. Again, I'm not talking about the amount of lift, I'm talking about the rate of lift, the number of thousandths of an inch that the valve opens per each crankshaft degree of turning. If another cam has an advertised duration of 280 degrees and a 0.050 duration of 210 degrees, then you can see that there is a 70 degree difference in the numbers. This means that there will be 35 degrees of crank rotation on the opening side of the lobe and 35 degrees of crank rotation on the closing side of the lobe. Can you see where there would be less work exerted at the lobe/crown interface with easing the valve open through 35 degrees of crank rotation versus yanking the tappet off the base circle of the lobe with only 25 degrees of crank rotation? If you can get wrapped around this, you will be able to understand more correctly why to use or not to use a particular grind. The rapid grinds are fine if you are looking for that extra 15 horsepower in a racing class where every hp counts and you do maintenance on the motor constantly, but for a street driver where you are more interested in longevity, you would be better off using a slower rate of lift in my opinion. If this makes no sense to you, write me a PM and I'll try harder to explain it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LayLow50
roller the way to go
In the past few years, auto manufacturers have discovered that some of the extreme pressure lubricants they were adding to their oils to prevent lobe/lifter scuff were being burned in the cylinders and wreaking havoc with O2 sensors downstream. This began costing the manufacturers a ton of money in warranty claims, so they leaned on the oil manufacturers to remove the extreme pressure lubricants from off-the-shelf oils. They were not needed any longer anyway, from the manufacturer's point of view. Everything was roller tappets and they did not require an extreme pressure lubricant. Well, nobody told those of us who were still building flat tappet motors, so we began experiencing failures at the lifter/lobe interface. You have to understand that the small (pencil point) of contact between the crown and the lobe is on the order of 250,000 lbs per square inch with the valve open and that requires an extreme lubricant. So, us hot rodders began using the lube (ZDDP) in our oil and the problem pretty much went away, so long as other precautions were addressed as well. Here's a list....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks

Roller cams sidestep all these lube problems and will give the highest rate of lift of any cam design without problems. There is no break-in either. You just clean the storage oil off them, dunk them in engine oil and install. Fire the motor and drive, no waiting. No scuffed lifters, no problems. Keen! [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LayLow50
Can you recommend different parts?
Personally, I would have used 5.7" rods and 5/64" rings. If you put a little longer intake duration cam in the motor (230-235), I'd use a 3000 stall converter and a rear gear approaching 4:1.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:17 PM
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Back on the motor...It's apart now, I have some flat spots on the cam, lifters. The crank has some scratchs on it. bearings-wear...I believe the pistons are 4.000 and the cylinders are 4.040, rings probably never seated. The oil had a bunch of crap in it....
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Old 11-30-2011, 01:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LayLow50
Back on the motor...It's apart now, I have some flat spots on the cam, lifters. The crank has some scratchs on it. bearings-wear...I believe the pistons are 4.000 and the cylinders are 4.040, rings probably never seated. The oil had a bunch of crap in it....
I hope you meant the cylinders are 4.004".
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:57 AM
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Update on 383 stroker

Here's the verdict...Took it to shop, The rings never had seated Also, the PVC value was never vented. It's already at .60 over... Need new cam, lifters, after honing the cylinders the piston clearance will be at 6 thousands... At this point, trying to just get it back together for the least amouint of cash... need advice on what to do, change, etc., what size cam?
thanks again
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LayLow50
Here's the verdict...Took it to shop, The rings never had seated Also, the PVC value was never vented. It's already at .60 over... Need new cam, lifters, after honing the cylinders the piston clearance will be at 6 thousands... At this point, trying to just get it back together for the least amouint of cash... need advice on what to do, change, etc., what size cam?
thanks again
That would be 0.060" over. It's important to get the measurements correctly written down- a mistake of a misplaced decimal can ruin your day. Or an engine. Look what happened to the Hubble mirror when they munged some mm/inch conversions...

If the cylinders are 0.006" piston-to-wall and they aren't tapered, you can look for a forged piston that needs that much p to w clearance and run them. If you try to use cast pistons, don't expect much life out of the engine, the clearances are usually about half of 0.006". There are some applications that require up to 0.005" p to w clearance w/a hypereutectic cast piston, like supercharged marine or high output and heat generating engines. But they will almost always be using a forging rather than a cast piston.

Use a standard width and tension ring pack. Have it torque plate honed to match the pistons.
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Old 12-05-2011, 02:56 PM
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I'm thinkin' it would be cheaper to sling that block over the fence and find a standard bore block to begin with, than to buy forged pistons.
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Old 12-05-2011, 03:01 PM
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You're right, Richard. Might even do better than a wash between the two, cost-wise, plus will have a better foundation.
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Old 12-05-2011, 04:00 PM
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Trash that block and get one that will clear at .030" or .04" overbore
GET A NEW SHOP. Whoever did your old engine should be flogged in public!!!
Quadrajet will be better than any Holley on the street if you get a good one or have someone rebuild yours that knows what he is doing. Try Cliff Ruggles at Cliff's High Performance.
For cam and compression recommendations, exactly what do you expect to do with the engine? RPM range? Daily Driver or weekend warrior? etc.
I have done a bunch of 383s and most are different because everybody wants something else. Be specific. Consider fuel you can/will use, how much torque converter you are willing to live with, economy(?), etc.
Don't forget "Speed costs money. How fast can you afford to go?"
Also, if you go big on the power without proper parts, you won't go for long!!
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Old 12-06-2011, 05:32 AM
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I bought this engine from someone, he was going to put it together, stuff was in boxes....Wanted this engine for driving to work sometimes, play a little on the streets, etc. If I "trash the block" and start over, what is a good set-up recommendation for parts to get, for what I would like to do with this car?
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