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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2008, 06:46 PM
j.d.brown.042964's Avatar
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A 3.73 rear would be a nice upgrade, and if you retain lockup type torque converter, still would allow for 2500 rpm cruising in 4th when locked-up. The 700r4/4L60/4L60E has a very low first gear ratio to begin with, so you don't really need to go nuts with stallspeed to get a pretty good (firm) launch anyways. Keep in mind that the more stall you have, the more heat it will create. Also, with a cam that really doesn't get into it's own element until 2500, you probably want to stay out of lockup until 4th anyway (kits available or wiring instructions available on this site's other forum) So, all that being said... I'd suggest you stay in the 1900-2600 range for stall and stay with a lockup converter for economy on those 75mph hiway trips. So far as the cooling system goes, you MIGHT get by with the stock radiator from the 305 IF it is in excellent clean condition, and you don't plan to get too crazy with the engine build, but an upgrade to a unit with more capacity would be extra insurance, and definitely advisable if you plan to go up over about the 360-370 hp level. Also an auxilliary transmission cooler (Highly suggested) will help your trans. live a longer life, as well as helping to lighten the radiator's workload. A hi-flow waterpump and thermostat will also help in cooling, to a certain degree. As far as suspension, I really meant more that the unibody structure should be braced/reinforced. By this I mean subframe connectors and possibly tower-braces. You don't want your car body to twist under torque, as besides losing force into the structure that could otherwise be getting applied through your driveaxles, it can cause problems with body panel fitment/alignment over time, especially if you've got a compromised roof such as T-Tops or decent-sized sunroof. (sagging doors, tweaked cowl panel, etc..) The improvements in structure and beefing of trans. and cooling systems should be done prior to putting serious hp/tq through this car, if you wish to avoid complications. Some urethane tranny mounts and perhaps also firmer bushings for trailing arms would be a good idea as well. Anything that's going to see greatly increased torqueload or stresses should be addressed. So far as size and type of rearend, I will only say that others on this site have much to say on that matter, but with research you should be able to come to a justifiable conclusion on what to do. Basically what I'm saying is that prior to putting a powerhouse in it, you should be sure all related/inter-connected systems are up to snuff. I'm sure others on here can elaborate more on this, as to specifics... Hope this helps you some. WIFE WANTS COMPUTER BACK NOW!!!! Oh well, gotta give her a chance at it, so bye for now.-Jim

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2008, 09:38 PM
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let me start by saying this...i gutted the car...no engine...no trans..no rear axle...everything has been taken off..so im building it from the ground up..literally...so if i was to go with a 2000+ stall converter then i should go with one thats lock up versus non lock up? the 2000 meaning rpm right? so would i go with one thats 1800-2000/2300-2500/etc.
Quote:
you probably want to stay out of lockup until 4th anyway
how do i tell what the range is for 4th gear..or any gear for that matter? i will look into getting all the stuff you suggested....im not in a rush to finish the work..i dont have any parts as of right now...and i probably wont any time soon...im trying to go through every aspect, every angle, so i dont need to do the work twice...right now im just trying to come up with a list of stuff to get...but it seems that i still have a lot more questions and research to do.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2008, 04:46 PM
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In my opinion, you're better off starting at the rear of the car and working your way forward. Gears, traction control, tires, converter, then work on the motor. Oftentimes, a guy will find that the car picks up enough to satisfy him with the rear/converter changes and he doesn't have to get into the motor.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2008, 08:26 PM
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i made a phone call to a tehc and they suggested the afr 65cc heads (AFR-1034) XR282HR cam(08-432-8 or 12-432-8 [10]) or 280h cam (08-430-8)..said 3.73 gears sound good...and a 2300-2500 stall converter non-lockup...also i think the edelbrock performer rpm air gap mainfold..they also suggested trick flow...but im kinda leaning towards afr..and i asked them about switching to carbureted...they said i would have to see if i could do that, based on emissions..or the regulations in my area...or something like that...anyone want to chime in and offer an opinion on the setup that they suggested...good/bad?
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2008, 09:28 PM
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Because you had mentioned that it will spend much of it's life cruising and not so much at a dragstrip, I would think that you might want to stay with 180cc runners as opposed to the 195cc that the AFR-1034's have. Also, that 65cc chamber might bring you under that 9.0:1 comp.ratio that would be preferable to stay above (if you want to run a fairly big cam). You will gain horsepower in the upper rpms with the larger intake runners and bigger cam, but at the expense of some lower end torque and "drivability". The hydraulic roller cam may be a little bit more forgiving in this case, but if it were me, and I were going to do a fair amount of cruising/normal driving, I'd opt for 180cc intake-runner heads with a 62-64cc chamber and a cam of slightly less duration to keep the powerband more in the low-mid rpm ranges, which is much more "user-friendly" to primarily street driving conditions. Perhaps a cam more like the 274 or 278 as opposed to the 280,282,etc...That, of course, is merely my opinion, and you know better than I what rpm band you wish to operate in. I suspect the 180 vs, 195 heads would give you more lowend "grunt" on this 350 as opposed to where the 195's might be better suited to a 383/388/400 build, FOR A CAR THAT WILL SEE MAINLY STREET USAGE.
So far as the converter, I feel the same way, that lockup clutch (Effectively a manual direct link) with a driver-selectable switching is a desirable feature to retain if you get out on the hiway at 70+, (or with a 3.73 at perhaps 60+). If wired for manual engagement you can leave it switched off if not feasible and rely upon the characteristics of how your trans. and converter are setup. It's nice to have that lockup AVAILABLE if/when you want it,as it allows some "override" of the converter's stall if needed. That's the great thing about using a 200/700 based 4spd. auto with lockup feature, it gives you lots of flexibility. There's lots of mod's that can be done, as you're probably already aware. A 2200-2600 stallrange is a reasonable stall for mainly street usage that can still lauch with a pretty good "kick-in-the-seat-of-the-pants-feeling". It will vary with how much tq your engine is making anyhow.
Someone else did make an interesting point about building from the rear forward, and I agree that could be a very sensible way to go about it.
I'm not saying the 195cc heads and the 282 or 288 cams won't work well for you, I am only saying that if you want slam you into the seatback torque and would prefer to keep the powerband starting more like 2000rpm as opposed to 2500-3000, then it might be a better choice to keep it more street friendly. If you do decide to go with the 195/65, you might consider having them milled-down to under 64cc to keep compression up between 9.2-9.7:1 range. Still well under detonation on pumpgas, especially for aluminum heads. I hope this helps you, but really you need to decide for yourself exactly what behavior you want this pending setup to have.
I'm sorry to be so long-winded, heck;I already forgot what you were thimking of for fuel supply. I'll let somebody else have their turn now.-Best Regards and hope I've helped with clarification rather than confusion. -Jim
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:14 PM
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yeah J.D. i called up AFR and spoke with a tech..he suggested i do something of this sort...you said try and get 180cc IRV so thats what i told him..and they have AFR 180cc SBC Eliminator Street Heads but with an option of 65cc or 75cc. i told him about the assembled 350 block i was thinking of getting...this is what he suggested i do...call SDPC and ask them if they do piston swap..to change the 4VR Dish Cast Pistons (13cc) to some type of piston thats flat top and that is 4cc instead of 13cc. then if i chose to do so id pay a little extra and get the 65cc heads..but have them mill it like you suggested to whatever i want 64/62 even 60... he asked about intake manifold i was considering..i told him Edelbrock Performer Air-Gap or RPM Air Gap...obviously with a carbureter...at first i was kinda worried about crossing over to a carb because of emissions...but i think in my area any car before 95 is exempt now(not 100% sure)..so ill do that. i got a few questions.. i will get them milled like you and the tech suggested..but should i go with the 195cc or 180cc..they are amlost identical except the 195cc has intake valve diameter of 2.050 instead of 2.020/damper spring included/and the exhaust port is raised 0.100 in. over stock. also im gonna word this question as best i can so you understand what im trying to ask..you said..
Quote:
I'd opt for 180cc intake-runner heads with a 62-64cc chamber and a cam of slightly less duration to keep the powerband more in the low-mid rpm ranges
how would i go with the 180cc milled down to like 62cc or 60cc with a cam with slightly less duration and keep the power i would of gotten with bigger heads and a bigger cam at a higher rpm but also get that..like you said...
Quote:
"kick-in-the-seat-of-the-pants-feeling"
power in the lower rpm's/off the line.? i guess im looking for the best of both worlds..a lot of power off the line but also a boat load of power in the higher RPM's if i choose to take it to that point...whats your opinion?
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 09:43 PM
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Before you order ANYTHING you really should find out what the emissions laws are in your area pertaining to year of car, and in some cases, year of engine. Very important you do this FIRST.
So far as having heads milled, it may not be neccesary if you opt to go a bit milder. The 180/65 setup would probably still give you power all the way up to 6200, or beyond that a bit depending upon what camgrind you opt to go with. But for something that will spend 95% + of it's time being street driven, I think you might consider trying to concentrate on a powerband that comes on from about 2000-2500 and runs thru just over 6000. It's easier on most components to keep them within their "happy range", and when you give up a bit of top end power, you gain it at the lower end where most of your street driving and cruising will be done anyways.
A 700R4/4L60 or 4L60E (Electronically controlled) has the lowest 1st gear ratio of all GM's standard offerings in automatics, so with a mild stall (2200 or so) and a 3.73 rear gearing you'll have plenty of punch. And if you do retain lockup, will still have a very effective overdrive 4th for fuel mileage.
Last but not least-and EXTREMELY important: Don't just take my opinion as carved-in-stone. Ask others on this site what they might do differently, and why. You have the benefit of a large audience here from which to draw your conclusions, but in the end, what you buy to assemble as "YOUR" package comes down to the basic fact that it is your money, and you'll have to live with the decision(s). -Jim
PS; You might ask TechInspector to plug your proposed build into his new Desktop Dyno software and see what the different options yield.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:21 PM
car novice..sad but true.
 
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Quote:
Last but not least-and EXTREMELY important: Don't just take my opinion as carved-in-stone.
im not necessarily taking it as you say..carved in stone..but you've been really helpful...im taking it as more of a starting point or foundation.. as for asking TechInspector to plug your proposed build into his new Desktop Dyno software..how do i ask him specifically..and what components should i suggest he input? the block i suggested with afr 180cc heads and 274/278 cam or the afr 195cc with 280 cam..milled or not milled?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:58 PM
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I'm followin' along and will be glad to dyno a combo.....when you reach a combo. You're all over the board right now.

I posted the AFR dyno tests earlier. All the parts are there to screw together a 450 hp 355 motor. That's about as good as it's gonna get for a street driver 355. Go ahead and get the roller short block. Sell the pistons on craigslist or ebay or just toss 'em. Bore the block 0.030" and use these pistons for a 9.52:1 static compression ratio with the 65 cc AFR Street 180 heads.....
http://kb-silvolite.com/performance.php?action=comp
These pistons have a "D" shape to the bowl which leaves a very nice flat surface on the piston crown to mate up with the flat surface on the underside of the head to make an excellent squish pad. Having a tight squish will allow the use of full ignition timing in the motor on pump gas and no detonation.
Cut the block decks for a piston deck height of 0.012" and use GM 10105117 head gaskets for a squish of 0.040". Use the
Comp Cams 12-432-8 Hydraulic Roller that AFR used in this combo.

Last edited by techinspector1; 10-01-2008 at 11:08 PM.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 10:58 PM
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I meant with the parts "as suggested by AFR" without any changes. I didn't specifically mean a certain combination of MY choosing. Perhaps could be tried with a couple of different cams of varying duration, say 274*/280*, etc...(I looked at that grind#12-432-8[10] and it looked like it would give you a pretty broad powerband in conjunction with 180/65 choice, but that's just my opinion.
You already have some of the "established values" I believe, from your discussions with AFR.
As far as asking TechInspector1 to run it, see his related thread that he started tonight. He seemed eager to play with his new toy. You will need to supply certain info.,of course.(See The Thread). -Jim
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-01-2008, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Go ahead and get the roller short block. Sell the pistons on craigslist or ebay or just toss 'em. Bore the block 0.030" and use these pistons for a 9.52:1 static compression ratio with the 65 cc AFR Street 180 heads.....
http://kb-silvolite.com/performance.php?action=comp
These pistons have a "D" shape to the bowl which leaves a very nice flat surface on the piston crown to mate up with the flat surface on the underside of the head to make an excellent squish pad. Having a tight squish will allow the use of full ignition timing in the motor on pump gas and no detonation.
Cut the block decks for a piston deck height of 0.012" and use GM 10105117 head gaskets for a squish of 0.040". Use the
Comp Cams 12-432-8 Hydraulic Roller that AFR used in this combo.
Weaz4200. You couldn't go wrong with a build like that. The comp.hydr. roller cam's specs would give you a great (and very usable) powerband and a very reliable, long-lived engine. With the other components similar to what's been discussed previously (3.73 posi, 2200 stall, etc). it would be a great driver. Others please comment as well.-Jim
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Old 10-02-2008, 03:27 PM
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AFR 195's are just too big for a street car 350, will make it feel lazy/unresponsive. If you look at AFR 383 dyno's the 500hp 383 with 195's and 433 cam only made an average of 12hp more than the 480hp (491hp) 383 with 180's and next size down 432 cam. I doubt 195's would do anything good for a 350.

If you want more go with an afr 180 competition port.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 06:24 PM
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okay techinspector1..let me go through a few questions so i can get this down pat.
Quote:
Go ahead and get the roller short block.
you mean this 350/L31 4 Bolt main Short Block Assembly... (http://www.sdparts.com/product/12556...kAssembly.aspx)
Quote:
Bore the block 0.030" and use these pistons for a 9.52:1 static compression ratio with the 65 cc AFR Street 180 heads.....
Bore .030.. got it.. 65cc 180 heads..got it..2 things though..should i keep the 5.7 p/m rods? also the link to the pistons opens up but has no pic..which piston part number are you talking about exactly?
Quote:
Cut the block decks for a piston deck height of 0.012" and use GM 10105117 head gaskets for a squish of 0.040"
cut the deck...got it... another question i have is...i bore the block .030 over...then shouldn't the gasket have a bore of 4.030" also? now i deck the block to height of .012"...you mean when the piston is at TDC..the top of the piston to the deck is .012" + the thickness of the gasket(.028") which gives me a squish of .040"..is that right?
Quote:
Use the
Comp Cams 12-432-8 Hydraulic Roller.
should i go with their #K12-432-8 cam and kit.? if i was to get their kit...would i change the springs on the heads to the ones included with the kit or not even touch them? the 700r4 transmission..with a 2300-2500 stall with lock up(set where i control it manualy). does that sound about right so far?
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Old 10-02-2008, 07:38 PM
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For the cost of boring, new pistons, decking, milling the heads and then paying to have that rebalanced with the new pistons you could just buy this. 9.6:1 compression with 64cc heads forged crank and rods, 4 bolt, roller cam block and even has provisions for a mechanical fuel pump which that L31 doesn't.
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Old 10-02-2008, 07:55 PM
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Also you will want a 08-432-8 cam (O.E. Roller block) not a 12-432-8 (retro fit) with the L31 or ZZ4. Lifter set, pushrods.
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