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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 08:14 PM
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I'm reasonably sure TechInspector1 will be on yet tonite to clarify your questions on what he suggested, and why. So far as the prefix (08- vs. 12-) it is correct about factory vs retrofit. But I'm sure what was meant was "a hydraulic roller cam having the spec's of the 432, as that particular grind profile would be an excellent choice for a broad and very streetable powerband. Good eyes to catch the typo, though! Anyways...Wait for TechInspector1 and I'm sure he'll clarify the specifics for you, and what his recommendations were based on. -Jim

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 09:01 PM
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Quote:
You're all over the board right now.
techinspector1.. yeah i know.. sorry.. its just everytime i think im close to a combo... different suggestions and ideas kinda throw me for a loop.. i kinda agree with Nothing's Easy though...all that work can get pricey...i was kinda thinking about what j.d.brown.042964 said about milling the heads...and what the tech guy at AFR told me (my previous post...#21 to be exact..). ill try to see if they can swap the pistons with different ones(not sure which ones) or buy them and swap them with the ones in the block myself... get the AFR 65cc 180cc IRV heads but having them mill them down to like 62/60(undecided). and go from there..but im not 100% sure.. but also like j.d.brown.042964 said previously...
Quote:
You have the benefit of a large audience here from which to draw your conclusions, but in the end, what you buy to assemble as "YOUR" package comes down to the basic fact that it is your money, and you'll have to live with the decision(s).
i may be scattered all over but i dont want to end up with something, later on only to find out that if i would have gone with something different..it would have been a better decision. again im sorry if i cant decide on one thing..im trying to take everyones ideas into consideration and look at it from all aspects...but i appreciate everyones willingness to help me out. oh yeah...one more thing... nothing's easy..what do you mean by...
Quote:
provisions for a mechanical fuel pump which that L31 doesn't.
where are you getting this info..from the link i posted?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 09:10 PM
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you mean this 350/L31 4 Bolt main Short Block Assembly... (http://www.sdparts.com/product/1255...ckAssembly.aspx)

YIKES
I didn't know you were talking about a NEW short block. I thought you had located a used, low mileage roller short block in somebody's back yard for a couple hundred bucks!!! You certainly don't want to be cuttin' and slingin' pistons out of a NEW short block. The Chevy pistons listed are -13cc's. The KB's I referred to are -12cc's. Close enough. The actual c.r. with a 0.000" piston deck height and Fel-Pro #1010 gasket works out thusly:
716 in the cylinder, 65 in the chamber, 13 in the piston, 0.0 in the piston deck height and 8.9 in the gasket.
802.9 / 86.9 = 9.24:1 with a 0.039" squish.
I wouldn't worry about the difference between 9.24 and 9.5 static c.r., although if it bothers you, you could have AFR take a thin cut on the heads to reduce the chambers a little. The rule of thumb is that each 0.006" cut removes 1 cc. Although the GM manual lists the 10105117 gasket as being compatible with aluminum heads/iron block, the forum at Sallee Chevrolet recommends using the Fel-Pro 1003 at 0.041" compressed or the Fel-Pro 1010 at 0.039" compressed, saying that either one will do a better job than the 10105117. Because the FP 1010 is thicker, you'll have to cut the decks to zero piston deck height to get the squish at 0.035" to 0.045" as suggested by most automotive authorities whom I have read. There are others, including some on this board, who feel that a slightly looser squish will also work to quell detonation and allow lower rated fuel to be used in a motor.

Frankly, it scares me a little to advise you to disassemble a brand new and fresh short block to cut the decks. Like I said, I wouldn't begin with new stuff anyway, so I would have no reservation about modifying the block for the optimum squish, but when you have the whole shebang sitting there, fresh and ready for heads, it just makes me cringe a little to tear into it. Why don't you try to find out what the piston deck height is on that new short block and let's go from there.

As far as the valve springs, coordinate with AFR and the cam provider to match the springs to the grind and have the correct springs assembled on the heads when they ship.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 10:01 PM
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techinspector1...let me just start with this... the stock engine was a 305 and i was gonna do work on that..but someone told me i was limited with what i could do with that block and suggested i find myself a 350...so thats what i did...and i just happened to stumble upon the 350/L31..so i figured a 350 is a 350..and the price seems reasonable.
Quote:
716 in the cylinder, 65 in the chamber, 13 in the piston, 0.0 in the piston deck height and 8.9 in the gasket.
802.9 / 86.9 = 9.24:1 with a 0.039" squish.
so thats how i calculate CR?(cc's in the cylinder/cc's in the head chamber/cc's in the piston/cc's between the piston and the deck/and the gasket). like you said i can always have AFR mill the heads down..maybe to like 62cc...to get it up to 9.53:1..but well worry about that later...i will do what you suggested and call to find out the piston deck height..one more thing..when i call to get the height..is there anything else that you'd want me to find out or ask them...? (specs/parts/etc.)
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 10:45 PM
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Hey weaz, it's Jim again. Perhaps you might inquire what SD would charge to deck the block if it had not already been done on the one that you were looking at? Specifically, if they can bulid one that way for you ( a shortblock that hadn't already been assembled yet). That would be prefferable to milling the heads. If you do go with the AFR {180/65's} and take good care of your engine, they'll be around for a long time. -Jim

Last edited by j.d.brown.042964; 10-02-2008 at 10:47 PM. Reason: spelling/underline important sentence.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2008, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaz4200
techinspector1...let me just start with this... the stock engine was a 305 and i was gonna do work on that..but someone told me i was limited with what i could do with that block and suggested i find myself a 350...so thats what i did...and i just happened to stumble upon the 350/L31..so i figured a 350 is a 350..and the price seems reasonable. so thats how i calculate CR?(cc's in the cylinder/cc's in the head chamber/cc's in the piston/cc's between the piston and the deck/and the gasket). like you said i can always have AFR mill the heads down..maybe to like 62cc...to get it up to 9.53:1..but well worry about that later...i will do what you suggested and call to find out the piston deck height..one more thing..when i call to get the height..is there anything else that you'd want me to find out or ask them...? (specs/parts/etc.)
Yeah, I'd question them about makin' 400-450 hp with PM rods. I noticed in the description they gave that they said it would make a good 350 hp motor. They didn't say anything about 400 or 450.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2008, 12:00 AM
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maybe i could ask about this one as well... dont know if theres much of a difference other than a 2-piece rear main seal, and 12cc dished cast aluminum pistons..
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2008, 12:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weaz4200
maybe i could ask about this one as well... dont know if theres much of a difference other than a 2-piece rear main seal, and 12cc dished cast aluminum pistons..
There are two things I will insist on in subsequent SBC builds that I do, one-piece rear seal and roller cam block. Two-piece seals and flat tappet cams are dinosaurs of a bygone era, thankfully.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2008, 10:52 PM
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okay techinspector1..heres what i found out...nothing..i called them three times...the first person i spoke to didnt sound too convincing or sure of himself..he said it should be able to get 400-450(max). asked about deck height..didnt know squat(said maybe .010 but not sure).i ended conversation but was not satisfied..so i called again..different person this time..asked him deck height as well..he said one its a factory replacement for trucks, two the deck height should be .025...i dont think i believe him 100%(also seemed a little rude).he also stated that the 350/L31 has been discontinued since March..so i asked why its advertised on their site still..he didnt know why...ended call..called a final time...got the person i spoke with first..told me the block was not discontinued..it seems like their tech people dont have a clue about anything...do you or does anybody else know or can suggest where i can check out a block(with rotating assembly) for a descent price?
Quote:
Two-piece seals and flat tappet cams are dinosaurs of a bygone era, thankfully
how do you know just by going to the last link i posted that the block is setup for a flat tappet cam?
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 12:18 AM
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how do you know just by going to the last link i posted that the block is setup for a flat tappet cam?
Hey weaz, the fact that you stated 2pc rear seal indicates it's an older block, prior to when they switched to OEM hydraulic roller cam.
As far as finding a good shortblock assy. with a company that will stand behind it, KEEP LOOKING, and make sure you feel "comfortable" with the company that you will be giving your hard-earned money to, BEFORE you shell out any clams. Hopefully you are not in a rush to get rid of your money, as this buildup is a decision you'll have to live with for quite awhile.
You've now got a pretty good idea of what you're looking for, perhaps not EXACT, but at least a pretty good idea...so take your time researching your potential supplier(s). One other poster had given a link to a shortblock package from Summit, and they're at least a well-known, nationally recognized company with an excellent reputation (to protect) as a speed equipment supplier. Jeg's is another main player, so they'd likely be a good option as well.
The newer style block with 1pc rearmain seal is generally considered to be an improved design, and the factory use of OEM hydraulic roller cams and lifters should illustrate the OEM's confidence in that design. That is not to say that the older (gen.1) engines were neccesarily BAD, just that improvements have been made in some areas that have proven to be beneficial in performance and reliability. But in the end, it's your dollar, so spend at least as much time researching your potential supplier(s) as you have on coming up with the parameters of your build, and you should be very satisfied with the end result. -Jim
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 12:38 PM
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im still gonna try and find out some more info on the blocks i posted earlier...since i called a bunch of places and no one can tell me what i need to know..im goin strait to the source...i called a chevy dealer...and they are gonna call GM and get the specs i need like monday or tuesday...i was looking at this and was considering getting it (http://www.streetperformance.com/par...-12561723.html)
even though its a little more than i was looking to spend...or maybe just buying a bare block...then a rotating assembly....
Quote:
I'd question them about makin' 400-450 hp with PM rods
are you saying that if an assembly that i purchsed has P/M rods...thats a bad thing..are they not good enough?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 03:53 PM
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This is the most complicated 350 build I have ever seen. Theres no reason for it to be this complicated. ALL new GM 350 short blocks have a .025" deck height unless its the blueprinted ZZ4. Which doesn't matter at all, I don't know why people have you so worried about deck height and compression ratio. The ZZ4 short block is a great short block for just about any build. Its the short block Edelbrock uses on all their 350 crate engines, even their 500hp supercharged motor and I'd be surprised if it wasn't the short block used to do the AFR dyno numbers. I was looking into doing the exact same thing you are a couple months ago. The L31 is a good motor, those P/M rods will work fine, but the block won't accept a mechanical fuel pump which will be a bit of a headache later on and though I hate to bring it up... the ZZ4 ($200 more?) will get you that 9.5:1 compression ratio thats just about perfect for pump gas with those 64cc AFR heads and will accept a mechanical fuel pump . Even if it only works out to 9.0:1 or even a high 8 it doesn't matter at all, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT!! A half point of compression isn't worth any of the machining costs let alone the circles these guys have you running around in.

Forget about all this machine shop B.S. The short block is built and brand new with a warranty. Take that ZZ4, slap on some AFR heads, your cam of choice, and you'll have a blast in that camaro.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 05:17 PM
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I have to go along with the last poster, It's absolutely stupid to think about buying a new short block then taking it apart (voiding warrant) and machinery it. If that was the case, and you felt so confident about your engine building skills, then just go purchase a good block and have at it, then come back later on and tell us how bad it all went. I build engines and have machine work done all the time, it's not cheap. To bore and engine (V-8) with torque plate bolted on, your looking at $400-450.00. Aline bore the mains, theres another $150.00-200.00. Deck the surface, $150-200.00. Clean, check and service rods, $150-300.00. That just the block and rods, balancing and other services add up quickly. For someone like you, that isn't that experience with engines, you are wise to go with a short or long block. I would stay with the L31 or ZZ4, they are good engines for the money and have a major brand warranty. The heads should also not be this hard to choose from or with so much drama, I would call all the major builders and do my selection from there customer//thecnical/knowledge/ service you get. If they are screwed up before the purchase just think how they'll be once you have a problem.
I also think you are missing a major option if you don't at least call and talk to some of the more popular/knowledgeable engine builders out there. There is a very good chance you can get your engine completely built, tuned and tested for the same cost as if you would piece-mill the thing together.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 06:57 PM
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The ZZ4 short block is a great short block for just about any build. Its the short block Edelbrock uses on all their 350 crate engines, even their 500hp supercharged motor and I'd be surprised if it wasn't the short block used to do the AFR dyno numbers.
and they do this without changing anything about the rotating assembly?
Quote:
the ZZ4 ($200 more?)
where do you get $200 dollars more? (http://store.summitracing.com/partde...1&autoview=sku) L31 $1,468.99 (http://www.sdparts.com/product/12556...kAssembly.aspx) also L31 $1,099.95.....as for zz4.... (http://store.summitracing.com/partde...3&autoview=sku) $2,299.95 and (http://www.sdparts.com/product/12561...eAssembly.aspx) $2,389.85. thats around $1000 difference.
Quote:
won't accept a mechanical fuel pump
whats wrong with that?
Quote:
I also think you are missing a major option if you don't at least call and talk to some of the more popular/knowledgeable engine builders out there.
like who?
Quote:
There is a very good chance you can get your engine completely built, tuned and tested for the same cost as if you would piece-mill the thing together.
i dont want someone to do all the work.. i agree that ive been rackin my brain with all of this info..but i look at the plus side...ive learned a lot.. like i said before, i dont wanna dish out cash when i could have made a better choice and go with something different...my hopes is that i can soon have a list of components to get...so i could get a pretty good idea of what im looking at power wise....plus this build is just getting started...im doin everything...an i mean everything..from engine to trans(not myself) to rear end to suspension...reinforcing the frame, addressing all the small things.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 10-04-2008, 09:10 PM
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Although I'm not posting advice any differently than I would to any other on this board who is a first-time engine builder, this particular build involves a factory short block, something that I wouldn't start with in the first place. Investing $4,000 into a build means checking everything and optimizing it in my opinion. But in the end, that's what it is, my opinion and the way I do things.

At this point, I will respectfully yield to the gentlemen from Canada and Cincinnati and bow out of this thread.
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