I'm trying to weld in this small patch on the inner fender of my 71 Challenger and I ran across an issue. The plate that I fabricated was made out of 16-17 gauge steel. As you can see I am plug welding it in along with spot welding around the patch. The plug welds went fine but I'm having trouble with spot welding it around the outside.
The inner fender material is thin so I'm beginning on the thicker steel and attempting to work my way out into the thinner steel to not burn through. I'm using a Miller 211, set up for 220 and I'm using gas with .024 wire. I set the welder a couple of different ways. One using the 17 gauge setting on the chart and the other using the thinner gauge setting and some in between.
In the one picture you can see where my ground clamp is in the upper left side of the picture, should it be closer? Also does the tip of the gun look ok? I need to start off fresh because I tried so many different settings. One more thing when I did my tests on the exact same gauge metal (thick to thin) on the bench they looked perfect using the 17 gauge setting. Can you take a look at the picture and let me know your thoughts?
you can go a little hotter and/or less wire speed. Maybe you need to turn up your gas a little or keep your cup closer or maybe it's not clean enough. I keep mine pretty close to not lose the gas and give a better weld. You're doing ok though. It's just fine adjustments from there.
i have the same machine, and have had problems off and on doing small spots like this.
i would recommend to start with the base settings in the lid for 18g. (3/45) then turn the heat down a little, like maybe 2.75 or 2.5.
also make sure and cut the wire off fresh for every spot weld
I say don't pay attention to those charts too much. Your settings should be something you learn from the way YOU weld, given you have the right fundamental knowledge. I would not turn it down. You need penetration for the thicker metal and for whatever reason there's pours. Higher heat will help and keeping your gun closer OR turning up your gas, or maybe your gas is up too high, or wire wheel it? You have to figure that one out. I have found those charts to be something you start at or to get an idea of the range, but by the time I'm ready to weld they are usually WAY different than the chart. In general, the chart will say one thing but I always find out I need it higher for better results. Quick and hot aren't what they are usually thinking when they come up with the charts but it is how you should be welding sheet.
I agree, don't believe I have ever looked at those charts, even the first times I used a MIG.
And from the looks of the divot in the middle of the weld you need to up the wire speed, leaving the temp the same. But there really is a big variable when you include your distance (stick out) and other factors. But looking at those welds, I would up the wire speed. Upping the speed is basically upping the heat too, it is speeding up the train full of electrons if that makes sense.
This makes no sense. Electrons travel at the speed of light. Any speed increase of wire would be negligible as far as speeding up the electron train.
I do agree the two divots were created from wire moving too slow, or temp too high. Other than that he had good penetration on both pieces.
His big problem is the fact he has 2 different thicknesses of metal. He should dwell longer on the heavier metal, and as the arc is moving across to the metal, he needs to meander onto and back off of the thinner metal to stitch it together. Also quick on and off with the arc to keep from burning through both. And of course Skip welding to keep the stuff from warping and buckling.
Not even sure what the big lump is in the middle...LOL
I think upping the speed is actually lowering the heat. There's a definite correlation. Like if I'm at the highest heat settings and I want more I just lower the speed a tad and you get the penetration you're looking for. The divots could be from the wire jamming into it but it looks more like a gas/contaminant issue.
I thought that for years too but check it out, it's carrying more electrons to the weld. You could be right on that contamination issue, but raising the speed can help take care of that too. But damn sure you are on the money, the metal being clean makes a big difference. And the gas too. Just had an apprentice at work who was having a hard time welding. I looked at the gauge and it was at about 1 CFH, it should be 3-4. That was all it took, it was like a different welder simply putting that where it should be. So, yes, you could be right on the money there.
The settings I see on the machine are near identical to where I have my Millermatic 180 set most of the time. The amps are a tad low, I use 2.8 but the wires speed is good. Like Tech 69 said, check the gas. The pressure gauge should read 25# until you pull the trigger and then drop to no less than to 20. Try to keep the tip no more than 1/2" from the metal.
Are you getting a steady burn, or is it sputtering and the wire burning back into the tip ? I had a HUGE issue with that on mine from new and ended up replacing the cheesy, cheap ground clamp for one that actually has spring pressure. The chrome on the clamp teeth doesn't help conductivity either. It appears the clamp is on paint to, that doesn't help. Get good clean bare steel for the clamp. I used a big C-clamp to pinch the ground clamp firmly until I replaced it.
Now understand, that problem may or may not help with upping the wire speed, the shielding gas or the metal being dirty with rust or what ever may be the problem just as you said Henry.
My point is when I see that hole it's also caused by not enough metal to fill it.
Martin, amps gives you penetration. The only reason why you turn up wire speed is to not burn holes. That's the only reason why wire speed goes up with amps. If it's not scientifically right it feels right with experience and when you know your welder. More wire speed doesn't fill holes from the molt that's from contaminants, trapped gas(trying to shut a big air space closed), or your wire jamming into it. If anything, less wire speed will get it hotter, burning away contaminants. I've never heard such a thing as adding more wire speed to cover a hole you are creating with your molt. That makes no sense at all and there's rarely an occasion where contamination is a real issue with mig where you can't just stop and clean it up more or turn up your gas. If there is an issue where you just can't clean it up you get it hotter in hopes of burning the contaminants away.
fair enough. you care to give me one source where they say to turn up your wire speed to cover contaminant holes? I never heard such a thing. I could be wrong, I'm man enough to admit. I would just like to see one credible source that says this.
even if they did say this, why would you do this when you can easily clean it up or turn up your gas and get back to welding with GOOD penetration? He's welding two different thicknesses. Turning wire speed up would give you more to clean up and less penetration on the thicker metal. Please show us a link to Lincoln or Miller ever suggesting to turn up your wire speed to cover contaminants.
Henry, you are confused so let's see if we can straighten this out for others who want to figure this stuff out.
No where did I say in any way shape or form that raising wire speed will correct a contamination problem.
It could be a solution to the divot in the middle of his weld due to not enough wire to fill up the weld in relation to the heat. It was a suggestion made just as all others, to help the OP solve his problem. You also provided good information that it could be a contamination, or too low of pressure with the shielding gas, all ideas to help the man correct his problem.
As for the other thing you said, "Increasing the speed increases the penetration".
who told you more wire speed means more penetration? It's exactly the opposite! If you're maxed out on amps and need more you lower the wire speed for more penetration. Just trying to clarify this so people don't go thinking that more wire speed increases penetration, it does not. Besides, just a few posts ago you say more wire speed means more penetration but now you're saying more wire speed fills holes? I'm confused.
The wire feed speed regulates how much or how fast the wire is feed into the weld joint. Wire feed speed is regulated in IPM or Inches Per Minute. The wire feed speed also serves another purpose for regulating the amperage. When Stick or TIG welding, the main setting is amperage, but it is the voltage that fluctuates depending on the arc length. With MIG it is the voltage setting that stays the same but the amperage is changing depending on the wire feed speed and electrode stick-out. Picture this; the faster the wire is feed into the joint, the better contact it has. The better contact, the more amperage gets through the wire and the higher the heat.
4. Set the wire feed speed. Wire speed controls amperage, as well as the amount of weld penetration. A speed that's too high can lead to burn-through. If a manual or weld specification sheet is not available, use the multipliers in the following chart to find a good starting point for wire feed speed. For example, for 0.030-in. wire, multiply by 2 in. per amp to find the wire feed speed in inches per minute (IPM).
Wire speed tips and tricks
Generally for thinner metal the wire speed is set at the lowest speed that welding can take place smoothly. This is because the current actually reduces as the wire speed is reduced so thin metal can be welded more slowly and controllably.
It's possible to reduce wire speed further by reducing the distance between the contact tip and the work piece. This can cause the tip to overheat, grip and stop the wire, and ruin the tip, but it can be a useful technique for delicate welding such as end on to an edge especially if an oversized tip is used or when welding for short periods.
For welding into a corner increase the wire speed. This reduces the length of the arc and makes it easier to weld directly into the corner rather than arcing against the sides.
Wire speed will need to be increased slightly when welding on a vertical surface vertically or to the underneath of a horizontal surface.
I think it is a misnomer. You cant Speed up electrons.
What you are referring to is increasing the energy level, more amps etc. power=energy
amps x volts is power, measured in watts.
The faster the wire speed, and the closer to the puddle , the more amps you can burn.
Increasing wire size also allows more amperage, but at this point I am preaching to the choir on that.LOL
too much wire speed will NOT lead to burn thru. That makes no sense. If you turn up your wire speed all the way it will look like a pile of poo and sit on top of the metal, not burn thru. It's not rocket science but you're trying hard to over complicate it. Again, more wire speed does not lead to more penetration.
Do the links mean nothing, Miller welder company means nothing? Henry, you are the one who is over complicating it. Obviously if you turned the speed up all the way it would be a mess, what does an Armadillo riding a unicycle have to do with this?
Let's agree to disagree so the OP can learn something from suggestions and not arguments.
They are saying the faster the wire speed the better the contact, the higher the heat. What they didn't say was "to a point"
We all know what happens when the wire speed is too fast.
The heavier the flow of molten metal across the arc, the higher the current is applied by the machine, to a point. Everything has a limit.Most small machines have 4 heat settings (amperage) but have an infinite wire speed control. It makes sense that the machine regulates the current flow,...to a point
If you have the wire physically touching the joint, then there is no arc, the wire will glow and melt inside the end of the gun.
After all, isn't welding -the arc and flow of molten metal across the arc where the welding takes place. The faster the wire is fed into the joint means more molten metal across the gap and it will conduct more current because of that.
I agree with what brian is saying , to a point. But The directions and text in the miller manual aren't exactly gospel. It also doesn't say that speeding up the wire leads to burnthrough, and it wont.
There we go, to a point, just like every other setting, often very little change to a wire speed or heat and you get very different results. That's all I am talking about here, *****************************************
It makes sense that the machine ramps the current up to keep the arc going as now along with keeping the arc going, it has to melt metal, so more current is needed . Its factored into the machine.
Also it says Feeding the wire into the joint faster makes better contact, is true. More molten metal in the arc, greater conductivity. The machine ramps up the current accordingly, which gives it the wiggle room to be a workable unit. Otherwise the weld would stall when the additional load of the wire and material to be welded is introduced
Its exactly backwards from electromagnetics, where it takes more current to pick something up with an electromagnet, but requires less current to hold it, the weld takes current t start it and it needs to increase in order to sustain the metal moving into the work area.
I'm not trying argue with you, you have given bad advice and I'm saying more wire speed does not lead to more penetration. If you up your amps along with it than you can weld thicker metal but that's not what you said nor it's not how you should look at it when making adjustments and fine tuning, which is what we're talking about, lowering wire speed will give you more penetration. IT IS A FACT!!! You clearly said upping wire speed leads to more penetration. NOT TRUE!
I will say this flat out...the problem IS contaminants or a gas issue. You can see rust in the pic. You can pick up whatever book you want but it's clearly a gas/contaminant issue and the weld does NOT need to be any higher.
If anyone out there doesn't believe me just have a look at Martin's welds and have a look at mine PERIOD!
I'm not trying argue with you, I'm saying more wire speed does not lead to more penetration. If you up your amps along with it than you can weld thicker metal but that's not what you said nor it's not how you should look at it when making adjustments. When you make adjustments and fine tuning, which is what we're talking about, then lowering wire speed will give you more penetration. You clearly said upping wire speed leads to more penetration, which would be incorrect
If you want people to believe that when fine tuning, which is what we are talking about, upping the wire speed leads to more penetration than that's just degrading the quality of this site in terms of PRACTICAL knowledge of welding. That's just bad info. Let's see Martin go to a real metal site and see how people respond to those posts. Oh man, he'd be shark bait.
Upping the wire speed after a point will leave half burnt/melted strands of wire , turning what should be a weld into looking like a porcupine.
I understand , and agree with you.
Brian had a small misconception, that's all. No biggee . He is a very good contributor and usually a spot on advisor. He can also be a lot of fun to have around.
Maybe you could lighten up tech. After all, even Babe Ruth didn't bat 1000 . Peace
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