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Old 09-13-2010, 10:16 PM
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Neighbors 75 Monte Carlo

Tried to help my neighbor out with timing his car but ran into problems. It is a stock 350 looks like a small block. First night we shot the light the timing looked to be at about 20 degrees btdc it was already dark and the distributor bolt was covered with dirt and oil build up. The idle was fine but seemed to be a little high. Next day we sprayed some degreaser to locate the bolt. We retared the timing to about 12 degrees with vacumn line plugged. The car ran like sh*# and started to back fire. I also increased the throttle and noticed that the timing mark did not advance. The cars idle now revs up and down. While shooting the light it goes from 12 degrees and drops to about 4 degrees with the idle. I thought the timing was high but after trying to adjust it the car does not run good now, i am also stumped why the timing does not advance when rpms are increased. Any help is greatly appreciated

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Old 09-13-2010, 10:51 PM
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Leave your neighbour's car alone. It's not your car.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:13 PM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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that cracks me up fbird....you do have a point there lmao.

Really though sounds like the dist should be taken out and cleaned up, chances are that the mech advance weights/plates are gummed up and this is causing the hunting, (HEI here assuming) you could mess around with it for days and never get it right, take it out and clean and test it, if its shot get a new one:

http://skipwhiteperformance.com/detail.aspx?Item=6500-R
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:39 PM
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check the harmonic balancer, after many years of use the rubber in the balancer will wear out and allow the outer ring to slip and you will never get correct timing...
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:27 AM
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When checking the timing, did you undo the vacuum line going to the vacuum advance on the distributor?.....Doesn't sound like you did.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:25 AM
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Might be more than timing messed up: vac leak, carb issues. Fbird is right once again
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:39 AM
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Stab a rebuilt distributer into the hole and hope it runs. This is a good lesson as to why you should not play with someone elses' toys unless you know more about them than the owner.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:39 AM
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I didnt know that helping out a friend/neighbor was such a big deal. By reading and replying to these posts you are helping someone that is less knowledgable as you, isnt that the same thing. I didnt start this thread for smart ***** remarks only seeking help and advice. Thanks to those for the advice.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:54 AM
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my KARMA ran over my DOGMA
 

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You are absolutely correct dare, what the hell is the world coming too if we can't provide help to our neighbours and freinds. I think that some of the remarks were just trying to point out that it can back fire on ya, but that should not stop anybody from trying and good on you for doing so
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare79
Tried to help my neighbor out with timing his car but ran into problems. It is a stock 350 looks like a small block. First night we shot the light the timing looked to be at about 20 degrees btdc it was already dark and the distributor bolt was covered with dirt and oil build up. The idle was fine but seemed to be a little high. Next day we sprayed some degreaser to locate the bolt. We retared the timing to about 12 degrees with vacumn line plugged. The car ran like sh*# and started to back fire. I also increased the throttle and noticed that the timing mark did not advance. The cars idle now revs up and down. While shooting the light it goes from 12 degrees and drops to about 4 degrees with the idle. I thought the timing was high but after trying to adjust it the car does not run good now, i am also stumped why the timing does not advance when rpms are increased. Any help is greatly appreciated
Timing chain and gears are gone. No stump, as the throttle is advanced and the internal loads on the timing set increase, the cam falls behind the crank. At the distributor that's being driven off the cam but referenced to the crank, it appears that the advance isn't working. A pretty good test for this wear on the timing set is to dring the engine RPMs up a couple three thousand with the timing light on the marks. Then slam the throttle shut and watch the marks, they will most likely bounce around as the timing chain runs the stretch in and out. Don't get crazy with this, if the timing set is really worn, it could jump time and put pistons and open valves at the same place at the same time which will add a lot of expensive rebuild parts such as valves, rockers, pushrods, and possibly pistons to a simple timing set replacement.

Bogie
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dare79
The cars idle now revs up and down. While shooting the light it goes from 12 degrees and drops to about 4 degrees with the idle. I thought the timing was high but after trying to adjust it the car does not run good now, i am also stumped why the timing does not advance when rpms are increased. Any help is greatly appreciated
Base timing shouldnt move up and down like this. Neither should the idle speed.
Many valid points have been made here.I would start by verifying if the outer ring on the balancer has slipped and is giving a false reading. If it has slipped it will show more timing than it actually has.
Also you will need to be sure you have the vacuum advance disconnected and look to see if the flyweights inside the distributor are held in place by the posts and springs ... they may be worn badly at the posts ,have springs missing, broken off etc.Sounds like some kind of distributor problem to me.
Timing chain slop could be a factor. Bogie had a way to check it. A simpler way ( because I am simple) would be to put a ratchet with 5/8 socket on crankshaft bolt turn motor over to TDC on timing mark. Then turn slowly backwards watching for distributor movement. as soon as distributor moves even the slightest(desired) check how many degrees engines was turned by looking at the timing indicator.anything 12 degrees or over is generally indicative of excess wear. This is pretty rudimentary but it works.This wont tell you wether the balancer slipped so dont confuse this step with a previous one.
To check the balancer you can on an SBC pull the balancer bolt and look for the keyway and put it straight up..not terribly accurate or a better and simpler way is to air charge one of the cylinders that is at bottom dead center when the number one is at Top dead center. usually this works well and doesnt require many special tools. You can do it with a rubber tip blow gun .one thing is you may have to loosen rocker arms in the charged cylinder to keep the valves closed so you can be sure that the cylinder stays parked at the bottom. I believe cylinder number 3 would be the one to use.If I am wrong someone chime in here.
Its good to see you trying to help someone in need.Lots of people are hurting these days due to all the corruption in big business and government. We the taxpayers are footing the bill unfortunatley. People need to stick together if we are going to keep our country OURS.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:49 PM
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the engine may not have the original and or correct timing cover/indicator
on it as well as the balancer could be incorrect ( marked for different indicator position) .Wrong combination of balancer and indicator could give incorrect timing reading as well as a slipped outer ring

There are 3 different styles of timing mark indicators and at least 3 balancer styles (or more) for internally balanced SBC . Marks are all in different places.
Havin any fun yet?
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
A simpler way ( because I am simple) would be to put a ratchet with 5/8 socket on crankshaft bolt turn motor over to TDC on timing mark. Then turn slowly backwards watching for distributor movement. as soon as distributor moves even the slightest(desired) check how many degrees engines was turned by looking at the timing indicator.anything 12 degrees or over is generally indicative of excess wear.
This description is not reader friendly. What the poster is meaning to say is to remove the distributor cap and watch for rotor movement.



Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
To check the balancer you can on an SBC pull the balancer bolt and look for the keyway and put it straight up..not terribly accurate or a better and simpler way is to air charge one of the cylinders that is at bottom dead center when the number one is at Top dead center. usually this works well and doesnt require many special tools. You can do it with a rubber tip blow gun .one thing is you may have to loosen rocker arms in the charged cylinder to keep the valves closed so you can be sure that the cylinder stays parked at the bottom. I believe cylinder number 3 would be the one to use.If I am wrong someone chime in here.
Again, not reader friendly. I have no idea what the poster is trying to say here, other than he makes reference to a companion cylinder. Companion to #1 is #6.

Here is the correct procedure to determine whether or not the harmonic damper is valid for timing purposes....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...op_dead_center
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:05 PM
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I suppose it could be hard to interpret... techinspector. I was just trying to explain how to keep number one at tdc by holding the other cylinder at bottom dead center. I thought number 3 was 180 degrees off from number one. Without one torn apart in front of me at the moment I dont recall. I was hoping someone knew for sure and would chime in. My thought was just to keep it easy for someone with limited tools to be able to make some simple determinations. I guess i should work on my instructional skills a litte here.I certainley dont want to confuse anyone.
I see you here often and from what I read in youre posts I regard you as being very smart and articulate in the information you provide.I regard any remarks as constructive criticism. I am here to learn and i value your opinion
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latech
I suppose it could be hard to interpret... techinspector. I was just trying to explain how to keep number one at tdc by holding the other cylinder at bottom dead center. I thought number 3 was 180 degrees off from number one. Without one torn apart in front of me at the moment I dont recall. I was hoping someone knew for sure and would chime in. My thought was just to keep it easy for someone with limited tools to be able to make some simple determinations. I guess i should work on my instructional skills a litte here.I certainley dont want to confuse anyone.
I see you here often and from what I read in youre posts I regard you as being very smart and articulate in the information you provide.I regard any remarks as constructive criticism. I am here to learn and i value your opinion
Thanks, did not in any way try to put you down. That was not my intent. Just a little confusing the way you wrote it, so I tried to help you out.

On a SBC or BBC or any other motor with the same firing order as them (1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2), the companion cylinders will be 1-6, 8-5, 4-7, 3-2.
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