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Old 07-12-2011, 04:08 AM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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New BBC 454 build

i currently have a 454 in my Firebird, long story short i had parts that didnt mix well with others and ate the cam that was in it leaving all sorts of metal shards in my motor. so i replaced the entire top end and the bottom end is in need of some help.
my goal for this new motor is 550-600 HP/TQ, i am currently deployed but while i still have money in my account i would like to start buying the parts. i cant buy the pistons yet because i dont have a new block yet, and have no idea what the bore size will be. i have a set of 781 heads that i will be taking to the machine shop while i am on leave to have it ported, bigger valves, bowl blended, and have them milled. now i want to end up with 9.5:1-10:1 compression. also will be going with a full roller cam. i want this motor to safely turn 7,000 RPM's. i was thinking a good set of roller rockers with a rev kit will suffice. wont have the money to buy a set of shaft mounted rockers. now i have 2 questions for this post. one is i have read that a good cast crank will hold up to what i want out of this motor, is that true or should i spend the extra money and go forged? second question is what kind of intake should i use. this engine will be on the street more than the track as it will be my daily driver back and forth to work, and from what i know about air gap single plane intakes is that they really are not that good for the street, but are needed to turn the RPM's i want. what would be good happy medium? no i have a TH350 and 3.73's with 29" tires so at 60 MPH i am turning 3,000RPM. have not picked out the cam yet but it will be a grind that makes the power in the higher RPM's. this motor will spend more time in the 3,000-5,500 RPM range more than anything else.

if anyone has built a motor like this your help would be much appreciated. like i said i cant buy all the parts until i find a block, and figure out exactly what my heads are going to flow and the combustion chamber size but i would like to get some of the little stuff out of the way.

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Old 07-17-2011, 04:53 AM
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hello,

Buy a forged crank if the money is not a problem.

If it were me I would go with the stock cast crank with 0-6,500 rpm potential. Esecially on a daily driver.

I've seen it written on here that big blocks aren't great hi-rev screamers. Meaning they were manufactured with low-rev torque in mind.

With it being a daily driver the intake manifold will probably need to be set towards 2,000-6,000 rpms.

Check out summit racing and see what intakes they have.

Does this help any?
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Old 07-17-2011, 10:01 AM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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money isn't really a problem. but if i dont need to buy a forged crank and rotating assembly then i will just put that money somewhere else on the car. i gave myself a $5,000 cap on this motor. i already have the heads, and i just bought summit racing stage 3 intake. its prity much the Edelbrock performer RPM but its an air gap. i knew i wouldnt be able to turn that many RPM's, i have a race blazer with a stroked 396 not sure of the final cubic inches but it was built to max at 8,000. i have the limiter set at 7,500. i just wanted the RPM's because with my TH 350 and 3:73's and 29" tires i am running 3,000 going 60. i just want this motor to be able to run at high RPM for a long period of time and it not be a problem.
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Old 07-17-2011, 10:57 AM
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I once had a 455 rocket and it was an awesome motor. The only problem I had was keeping starters on it; It went through one every six months. Spending thousands on high performance parts probably wouldn't have made things any better except 50 more HP. So, you'll need to ask yourself: Is $1,500 worth 50 more HP? I couldn't afford the gas in my BB as a stock engine.

The problem I hated was low end torque. A small block could eat my lunch in a quarter mile, but I would eat his in a mile. I would find a cam and intake that will give you some extra torque in the low RPM range.

Good luck on the build and I'd love to see it either way if you can get some pics. up.



Enjoy.

Last edited by jason777; 07-17-2011 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:04 AM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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thats a really good way to put it. i am thinking i dont really need all forged parts. i really wont be pushing out that much power for it to really matter, and it wont spend much time on the track. maybe once or twice a month. but should i at least go with forged pistons with a 10:1 compression ratio? it might be lowered to 9.5:1 since i will be using cast heads.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:32 AM
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For street use one builder recommends Speed pro or TRW forgings.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...fhvJ3w&cad=rja

And for racing he recommends BRC, Forgedtrue, Arias, or Venolia.

That is, if you want to get away from stock pistons. I don't think spending three times the money is going to give you three times the compression ratio or HP.

Last edited by jason777; 07-17-2011 at 11:39 AM.
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Old 07-17-2011, 11:42 AM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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well with the cam that is going to go into the car and all the head work i am going to have done, it will need 9.5:1+ to make use of it all. What size dome does that piston have? i couldnt find the specifics on it.
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Old 07-17-2011, 12:01 PM
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Summit racing carries Speed pro pistons and is likely cheaper than anywhere else.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...5ujMMw&cad=rja

I would call them and tell them want your looking for and they will give you their recommendation. Speed-pro makes every dome type you can imagine.


Enjoy.
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Old 07-17-2011, 12:21 PM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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they do carry a lot... i guess i never really looked at all the piston choices i have. i will have to wait until my heads are done to see what my final chamber size is going to be before i get into picking one out. maybe i am just underestimating the strength of cast. i just like the thought of having a forged piston when going with a bigger compression ratio.
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Old 07-18-2011, 12:50 AM
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hello,

I'm thinking if you are bound and determined to run forged crank, rods, and pistons.. you might as well set it up for a supercharger.

You know the works!

4 bolt main "splayed" caps

ARP 1/2 main cap studs

ARP rod bolts and head studs

Big 3" dual exhaust

You might end up over budget around 2k?

Well just a thought...
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Old 07-18-2011, 01:15 AM
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First off, thanks for your service.

To your questions...

1.) The GM cast crank should be fine. Make sure it is well prepped by the machine shop of your choice. Re-balancing is a must (especially with new pistons) and make sure it's line-honed. ARP main bolts/ studs will also be of benefit. The stock rods re-sized with ARP 2000 bolts should be fine as well. Like you said, it's a not a 1320 machine, just a street warrior. I would be looking to put any extra money into a better set of heads but you already have your set chosen. So, maybe plug that into a good carb... search out Troy Patterson in CA if you feel so inclined.

2.) Regarding intake, figure out where you want the power first. You mention a 7K redline/shift point and a cam that makes power upstairs. Decide where you want it... can't have it both ways. If you want a strong mid-to-top pull: single plane. If low-to-mid: dual plane. A low gross vehicle weight and cubic inches will help crutch a top-end minded engine but it's not a panacea. Gears will also help and a 3.73 is not bad but if the cam gets too crazy a lower ratio will help. Lowering your desired redline/ shift point by even 500rpm can help when selecting/ matching components.

3.) Getting 'the little stuff' out of the way, in my opinion should be the last. Like you said, you need the block and the head flow data. Both of those will provide critical data (once machining is finished) for figuring the compression ratio and cubic inches, choosing a cam and intake to work together, among other things. So, the 'little stuff' in my mind would come after the 'big stuff'. I would use this time to find the cheapest prices, read up on similar builds, etc...

4.) I hope the TH350 you mentioned is a good one... it's going to need to be.
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:24 AM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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i am not really bound and determined to go with forged parts. i really just want to do this motor once, and i dont want to have anything breaking because i skimped out again on parts. (thats what happened to the motor thats in the car now). i am really looking to not make the same mistakes again. but if for what its going to be used for, and the higher compression ratio i will have if cast parts are going to hold up to it, then by all means i will go with cast parts. not looking to spend any more than i have to, but i dont want to buy cheep parts again.

GenYnNC, you are absolutly right. i am just trying to get my feet wet in it, and see what some people had to say. i was kinda hoping someone would give me a good recipe or similer to the a motor they have built with some of the parts i already have. and oh yes my TH 350 is built to handle everything short of a blown motor. after it went out on me the first time, i went and bought all new internal parts with B&M clutches w/plates and put it together myself.
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:53 PM
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Cast pistons can be suspect if your piston speeds begin to elevate, which it sounds like they most cetainly will (above stock). If you are holding to the 7K redline... don't mess around, go with forged pistons. It will not only hold up to higher piston speeds but you'll have a better piece of mind when going with higher compression ratios and possible detonation.

If you were keeping the compression below 9.5:1 and the redline 6,500rpm or so, I would check out some hypereutetic pistons to see how their price compares. ***However, detonation absolutely destroys these types of pistons. And every engine and it's variables (valve timing, quench, tune, etc...) can cause detonation at different timing points and different rpm. So what works for one person (using hypereutectic pistons in a hot street build successfully) at said compression ratio with X octane fuel at X top rpm, probably will not work for you or myself.*** Just a word of caution when using these. They are great pistons for their intended use, they just don't like to be pushed past it.

I would do a heavy search on this forum as BBC 454 combos are almost listed as frequently as 350 sbc combos. I know there are plenty around with iron GM heads, aftermarket roller cam and other goodies that you will probably be interested in.

Best of luck.
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Old 07-19-2011, 01:04 AM
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454, what turns your crank?
 

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thank you for the info. i am going to do some looking around to see what i can find. looks like i will be staying away from a set of hypereutetic pistons, do you think i should upgrade the rods too? or just put some ARP bolts in stock style?
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Old 07-19-2011, 09:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint Cummins
hello,

I'm thinking if you are bound and determined to run forged crank, rods, and pistons.. you might as well set it up for a supercharger.

You know the works!

4 bolt main "splayed" caps

ARP 1/2 main cap studs

ARP rod bolts and head studs

Big 3" dual exhaust

You might end up over budget around 2k?

Well just a thought...
If you go for splayed mains (total overkill even for a street blown motor) and all forged internals, count on the budget easily busting $2k. Machining for splayed caps is more than simply drill and tap, they require clearances on the outer mating surfaces as well, along with a competent machine shop, been there. Head and main studs are overkill unless you do intend to go for high boost. I would endorse a forged crank, pistons and good rods/bolts with your desire for high rpm, however, big blocks don't need it to make power.
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