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New Build - 350 or 383? Guidance and suggestions on different combos

10K views 45 replies 8 participants last post by  ap72 
#1 ·
Okay, so I'm planning on putting in a new engine into my 90' camaro. I won't have a lot of time my way in a few weeks, so I'm looking to make it a bolt-on matchup kind of deal - where, I'm looking at short blocks, heads, and a cam/lifter set to put together and drop in.

So, what I want out of it. I want it to basically be a mean street machine with about 450-500 hp and similar torque numbers. I could live with low 400s-450 just fine as long as the torque is 450+

Heads:
I'm pretty sure I know which heads I want to go with. I found some Brodix track1 aluminmums with 221cc intake runners, 2.08"/1.6" valves, 67cc combustion chambers, and it can handle 0.700" lift. I figured they would suit the airflow need in order to hit the power numbers I'm aiming at. And they're a decent price at ~$1430 I don't know if it's overambitious, or just right. Let me know your thoughts.

They biggest pickle I'm in is figured out what bottom end I should get that will handle those heads well and handle 450-500 hp fine, at a reasonable price. I'm not trying to overkill it and set it up for 800+ or anything - this engine in particular will never see that, and would rarely even hit the strip for now.

I've found some 383 options:
At Competition Products, roughly 2 that look promising -
5.7" scat 4340 I-beam rods; Icon forged aluminum pistons; scat cast steel; 11:1 CR with 64cc heads; GM 4-bolt block - $2100

Same as above, only with hypereutectic pistons instead of forged - Price: $1900

Blueprint also has one -
I can't find much info on the internals, except for GM "heavy beam" rods; hypereutectic pistons; cast iron crank; 10.38:1 CR with 64cc heads - $2100

As far as 383's go, I know more cubes helps with the power, but then I'm worried about whether dumping in a lot more air to get to that power means I need forged internals or not, or if the durability is going to be fairly shot due to the added stresses from the longer stroke. Also, I have the damper and flexplate from my old 383 that I could use, so a very small plus as far as that goes.

350 options:
Found 2 decent options-
5.7" forged 4340 I-beam rods; "forged" pistons (didn't say anything else); GM forged steel crank; ~10:1 CR with 64cc heads; GM 4-bolt block - $2300 and that is also sold at competition products website.

5.7" powdered metal steel; high silicon aluminum pistons w/offset pins; 1053 forged steel crank; ~9.2:1 CR with 64cc heads; GM 4-bolt block - $2300 and this is sold straight form GM, their ZZ4 short block

Cam
As far as the cam goes, I wanted to settle these things down, and when I feel confident with what I'm going with and I have things lined out, I was going to call comp, lunati, isky, and maybe some more cam manufacturers and get their direct opinion on what cam setup I should go with; however, with the different results I've seen with similar setups, I was thinking specs about like this: ~0.540ish lift(s); duration(s) around 250/260; LSA around 108-110

Things I currently have:
-Holley 670 double pumper
-Edlebrock airgap aluminum intake
-hooker shorties
-msd street fighter distributor
-and like I said earlier, damper and flexplate that could go on a 383

Sorry for the overload, but I figured it best to try and put as much info as I could out there, so you more experienced guys have enough to work with to give some advice.

Let me know what your thoughts are! I'm really just looking for direction, if ya'll have better thoughts for a short block, heads, or what have you, then by all means, I welcome it. And hell, if you think I'm being too ambitious with my goals with what I'm trying to spend, I wanna know what route you think I should go.

Thanks,
Taylor
 
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#2 ·
I personally think going smaller than 383 is dumb unless you have a racing class cubic inch limit forcing you to...cubes is torque and more power.

That much spring on the Brodix heads is intended for a solid roller cam only and will kill anything hydraulic roller or flat tappet, are you willing to use a solid roller cam?? The IK 210 may be more up your alley than the Track 1's.

You'll want a head in the 70cc combustion chamber range if any of these flat top piston 383 combo's have to run on pump gas. Either buy them that way or be willing to grind the 67cc out some to get 69-70 cc.

I'd go with the Comp Products forged piston 383 if it was me choosing from that list, no hyper pistons for me, and certainly no refurbished GM rods.

Properly put together, there is no difference in durability compared to a 350, so don't even consider that an issue.

The ZZ4 350 is way overpriced compared to what you get...cheap stock Powdered Metal rods, hyper pistons, low grade forged crank.

Holley doesn't make a "670 Double Pumper", DP's come in 50 cfm increments, 600/650/700/750/800 etc....so what do you actually have?? The 670's are dual feed line Vacuum Secondary "Avenger " series carbs.
 
#3 ·
You're right. I guess I'm just over thinking it - as far as horses go, 500 isn't "huge" anymore. I was kind of leaning toward the 383 with the forged pistons because I have a soft spot for torquey strokers, and having forged pistons with it for that price seems like a sweet deal. So I'm relieved that I have some confirmed recommendation on that. Also, on the ZZ4, isn't it a bit silly for them to throw in a forged crank in the first place, and not anything else? Since your crank is far from your weakest link.

And yes, those springs are a little much, but I was too focused on the bigger intake valves. You think th lower grade track1s would still be a bit much ( 140 lbs @ seat with 0.600" max lift; 2.055" valves)? Because no, I definitely dont wanna go solid. Maintenance friendliness is key here, and doing valves every week is not something I plan on doing. I had a hydraulic flat before. And I was thinking about going hydraulic roller. But once again, you think that's too much overkill, since having a roller setup should only make a difference at high rpms?

Still think 70cc is the kicker even on 93?

I'll have to look at those IK210s. I only have IK200s in my jegs book. So, I'll have to do some looking on the web pages.

And you're absolutely right. 670 street avenger. I misspoke and was misinformed. I hate to say it, but carburerators are the things I know the least about.

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.
 
#5 ·
I don't plan on taking it over 6k, really. But on those rare occasions, I like having the comfort of knowing it'll handle more.

And with the short block, heads, cam, possibly carb upgrade, and stall, I was thinking 4.5-5k. Prefer under 5k and more in that 4k range.
 
#7 ·
for torque,biger is better,,,
A small solid roller makes great power and they have a decent idle. Roller cams make more power over the entire rpm range not just top end. Other heads to consider AFR 195/210s or profilers.
Im a horse power guy,torque comes with horse pwer anyways
 
#8 ·
Nothing wrong with the lesser spring/valve size Track 1's, and unless you are going to go over .600" lift and above 7000 rpm you'd never utilize the flow potential of a 2.08" intake valve anyway.

For what it seems you want to do, I'd go hydraulic roller or solid flat tappet, wouldn't even bother with hydraulic flat tappet, and you've stated no solid roller, so.....

670 cfm carb is a bit small for a 383, I like to use nothing smaller than a 750 unless it is just a truck motor.

On cylinder heads, watch out for angled spark plugs, lots of the common street headers will not clear angle plugs, so make sure you check to see if your headers will clear before you order.

Howards Cams has about the best deal on retro-fit hydraulic roller cams and lifter packages, see them at Competition Products.....they have pretty good deals on Brodix heads also.
 
#9 ·
True. Torque is the power that lies within each rotate, horses are when you can add that with some good rpms.

Yes. I've looked at the AFR 195 streets, and they boast damn impressive flows with 2.02" valves.

I've also researched some dart pro1s. What do you think about those?

Dart pro1 1.437" springs; 200cc intake; 2.02" valves; 64/72cc chambers - $1550
Afr 1.29" springs; 195cc intake; 2.02" valves; 65/75cc chambers - $1450-1500 (135lbs at seat 0.600" Mac lift)
Brodix track1 1.47" springs; 221cc intake; 2.055" valves; 67cc chambers - $1400 (140lbs at seat 0.600" max lift)
Brodix dragonslayers 1.55" springs; 225cc intake; 2.08" valves; 64/68cc chambers - ~$1700 (don't know if these would be too much for hydraulic cam - 140lbs at seat and 400lb open 0.600" max lift)

These are some highlighted ones. You think I'm on the right path, or still too much spring?
 
#10 ·
Okay awesome. Hydraulic roller it is. I've seen Howard cams come up a lot. I'll give them a look.

I've definitely kept my eye on those angled bastards. I have enough trouble with my headers and straight plugs...

Haha, you're right about the valves, but you know how it is, looking at numbers, bigger is ALWAYS better, etc...okay, yeah, those more forgiving brodix heads should do nicely then, because I'm definitely not going over 0.600".
And do you still think 67cc combustion chamber is too small with the CR and 93?

I've looked at some demon 750s...and they're a little pricey, but I've known some people to have good results with them. Speed demon 750 with vacuum secondary is from $460 on jegs. What are your thoughts on the carb?
 
#11 ·
I've seen a lot of reports of Demon being hard to tune. Then you also have the fact that the Holley style Demon is no longer being made, Demon is out of business(Barry Grant, anyway) and it appears that it is just old stock being sold off.

Holley HP or go to a carb builder like Quickfuel, ProSystems, APD, AED, BLP.

67cc chamber puts you awfully close to 11-1 compression, a bit out there for pump gas, especially if you don't stay on top of the tune and weather.

Hydro roller cams typically need seat pressure in the 135-170 lb area. 400-500 lbs open pressures.

Of all the heads you listed, the Dart's seem to have the lowest flow numbers in independent testing.
 
#12 ·
Thanks for the insight on demon. I've also heard good things about quick fuel. I'll look into them.

And yeah, 11:1 is a little gnarley. With 67, it'd be...10.8ish. So, I'll keep looking as far as that goes.

That's what I've seen about rollers, so the heads choices will do just nicely. And well, I think I'm going to try to find a brodix with a slightly bigger chamber then, because they have some decent deals.
 
#13 ·
If your really looking at a 6,000 rpm redline you don't really want a head over 200cc's. And flow is not the end all be all. And the smaller valve the better actually- assuming you can still get adequate flow. For 500hp 2.02" is more than sufficent. You want a head that isa well balanced package, and not a race head. A 220cc head on a 383 is good for almost 7000 rpm, which is too much and will not perform as well in your target range. Also, for that rpm range your cam won't need to be bigger than 230 on the intake, assuming hyd roller.

Don't get sucked in to thinking bigger is better- it's not. Better is better.
 
#16 ·
Guys, I think I'm going to go with the AFR eliminator 195cc's

I'm attaching some flow results for the AFR 195's, the brodix 221's and the brodix dragonslayers, just for reference, and it's impressive how well the AFR's outdo the much bigger volume intake runners on the brodix track1 221's and how it goes toe to toe with the hefty DS 225's.

Another thing, is it boasts much better flow rates leading up to what would be maximum lift.

Also, it comes with the choice of a 65cc or 75cc chamber, ericnova72, so that would put me in the ball park of right at 10:1 compression. the 65cc chamber would put me just shy of 11:1.
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#18 ·
Guys, I think I'm going to go with the AFR eliminator 195cc's

I'm attaching some flow results for the AFR 195's, the brodix 221's and the brodix dragonslayers, just for reference, and it's impressive how well the AFR's outdo the much bigger volume intake runners on the brodix track1 221's and how it goes toe to toe with the hefty DS 225's.

Another thing, is it boasts much better flow rates leading up to what would be maximum lift.

Also, it comes with the choice of a 65cc or 75cc chamber, ericnova72, so that would put me in the ball park of right at 10:1 compression. the 65cc chamber would put me just shy of 11:1.
View attachment 168018

View attachment 168026

View attachment 168034
the track I's are a 30 y/o head... they are built like a tank..
set up for 400 cid+ sprint cars..

check what standards the afr are tested at and the brodix..
(inches of water)

flow charts are as bad as cam makers and their catalog list duration numbers..
 
#17 ·
Some hyd roller options:

Lunati
Voodoo Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Cam - Chevrolet Small Block 282/290 - Lunati Power
0.535"/0.550" lifts; 231/239 duration @ 0.50" and lsa of 110 - $305
like 2500 stall

Comp
COMP Cams 12-433-8 Comp Cams 'Xtreme Energy' Hydraulic Roller Camshafts - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
0.520"/0.540" ; 236/242 duration @ 0.50" and lsa of 110 - $300
Likes 3000 stall

Howard
Howards, Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft, Chevrolet SB 305-350 87-98, 225/233 @ .050, .525/.530, 110 LS - Competition Products
0.525"/0.530" ; 225/230 duration @ 0.50" and lsa of 110 - ~$270

Now, I'm looking for your opinion on the brands, and whether you think I'm barking up the right tree with these profiles. There are others, of course, but these are reputable, and I know ericnova72 suggested howard.

Also, do you think I'll have clearance issues with any of these? As far as the size of the base circle goes. The short block I'm going to go with didn't mention any concern on the specs, but I know clearances can be an issue with 383's. I'll check the clearance when I'm installing, of course. But I wanted to pick ya'lls brains.

-Taylor
 
#23 ·
Yeah if you had $1500 in your budget for heads you really can't go wrong with the afr's. 6k rpms or below prob the 195cc. A lot of these new split duration cams though, like the lunati voodoo solids or rollers have very broad ranges. 2500-7k 2800-7200 etc.. So i'd look into running a similar cam and the afr 210's. That would be a beast of a motor and still very streetable in my eyes. People have a lot of personal preference with heads.. but the majority i think would agree that for 15,1600 afr's are where it's at. I think the debate is when you want a 1000 head. Then you got the pro-filers, rhs etc.. I personally only had about 1k for budget on my heads and ran RHS heads and am very satisfied. I think when you start talking brodix, like the dragonslayers or the big afr eliminators you really are looking at cam ranges absurdly high for the street to adequately supply those heads. And when you get that competitive, your going to want to port your heads anyway so a lot of the head design itself might be more important than the factory flow numbers... which played a part in my decision to run RHS because you can port them rather extremely and easily. Just my .02
 
#24 ·
Yeah, definitely leaning more and more to the AFR's seen so much good stuff from them, I can't pass it up. I think I'll stick with the 195's because the 210's spring load is a bit much for the cam I think I'm going to because it'll be a hyd roller.

So far, it's looking like this
-383 short block with 4340 I-beam rods, scat cast steel crank, and forged Icon pistons at comp products - $2100

-afr 195cc's with 75cc chambers to keep the CR at about 10:1 - $1570

-lunati voodoo retrofit 0.535"/0.550" 231/239 @ 0.50" hyd roller (retrofit) - $300 (add $380 for the lifters)

-still up in the air on carbs. Don't need to go too crazy, but I'm just wondering at what point is 750 cfm okay for all kinds of different brands (or even different styles within the same brand, like holley)

They put similar specs for a lot of them and they start to blend together, to be frank. I saw that the regular ole holley classic double pump 750 cfm was just shy of $500. What's the difference between going with that or the HP or the Ultra HP for that matter?

As far as the big hefty heads go, you're right. I'm seeing the combos that go with those, and that's not my fit. Gotta keep learning in this hobby.
 
#26 ·
90' camaro, it's going to primarily be street like I said at the beginning.

Shoot, I guess I decided to not check on that style on whether or not they had a vacuum secondary. You're right, I'm definitely going to want to stick with a vacuum secondary.

You think demon is a good way to go? Ericnova was totally against that. As far as pricing for what they list, yeah, it's a good deal.

I have msd distributor, hooker headers, and roller rockers. I got that covered.
 
#27 ·
I want it to basically be a mean street machine with about 450-500 hp and similar torque numbers.Things I currently have:
-Holley 670 double pumper
-Edlebrock airgap aluminum intake
-hooker shorties
-msd street fighter distributor
-and like I said earlier, damper and flexplate that could go on a 383
No reason to re-invent the wheel for a street motor that will be capped at ~6000/6200 and make 500 hp on pump gas. We've put this combo together many times here on this forum. If you want more than that on the street, you should be thinking low static compression ratio, blower and high-buck everything.
I would counsel toward AFR 195's with 65cc chambers and pistons with a 12cc D-cup crown arrangement.
Let's run the numbers on such a combination.....
.7854 x 4.03 x 4.03 x 3.75 x 16.387 = 783.8 cc's in the cylinder
Zero cc's in the piston deck height (zero deck the block and use Fel-Pro 1003 head gaskets)
65 cc's in the head
9.1 cc's in the head gasket
12 cc's in the piston crown

Total cc's 869.9
Subtract cylinder cc's from total cc's and find 86.1 cc's
Divide total cc's by 86.1 and find 10.1:1 static compression ratio with a 0.041" squish.
Use Howards cam and lifters kit CL110255-10 for a 8.60:1 dynamic compression ratio.
Howards Cams # CL110255-10 - SBC Hydraulic Roller Cam & Lifter Kit
To make power, use a 750, 800 or 850 carb on a high-rise, dual-plane intake manifold such as an Edelbrock RPM intake 7101. Weiand 8150 will work also.
Sling the shorty headers over the fence and install a set of long-tube headers, 1 3/4" primary diameter, minimum 3/8" thick flanges. Thinner flanges will curl up from exhaust heat and spit out the gaskets. Install an X or H pipe immediately after the collectors and run your pipes out to the back bumper through mufflers of your choice. Nothing sounds so mickey mouse as pipes that are terminated under the car and resonating on the under-car sheetmetal.

Damper and flexplate choice will be determined by balancing. Internal balance, neutral balance damper and flexplate. External balancing, eccentric weights on the damper and flexplate.
Scat makes a cast steel crank that is affordable and does a good job. They also make a nice connecting rod, part number 25700P that is already clearanced for the cam lobes. Only other grinding for clearance will be at the bottom of the block at the pan rail to clear the big end of the rods. You may or may not have work to do there, depending on the block.

Total up your stack of parts, piston compression height, connecting rod center to center measurement and crankshaft stroke radius (1.875"). Have your machine shop verify that the main bearing bores are round and parallel with each other. Correct as necessary. This is the guts of the motor. If the mains are incorrect, then everything else is also skewed. Cut the block decks to zero based on your stack, with the block chucked up on the main saddles for reference. This will allow you to use the 1003 head gasket and craft the squish at 0.041" for maximum detonation resistance. Use 16-18 degrees ignition lead at the crank and alter your centrifugal advance to total out what the head manufacturer tells you that the heads need.
 
#28 ·
Yeah i was curious as well your application? Or just getting ideas for a build? For what items you listed and not being a complete daily driver i think you would be best suited for a standard holley 750 dp. Good carb to learn on and you can buy all the aftermarket items to have it perform as well as the HP series carbs. A cam around the 230 @ .50 range might not benefit from the added advantages of the race series carbs anyway. Like a Holley HP with the 50cc pumps might hurt, the pumps provide more gas available for longer and more volumized "squirts" I'm not to big of a Guru on carbs but it would be all about setting your timing at a base of around 36 degrees advance, run stock jetting on the carb and get the best e.t. playing with the timing between 33-38. Then you would have to start with jetting on the carb, and then maybe go with a 50cc pump just in the front and reduce jetting if you had to.. etc.. I never had a dyno so i always did this sort of setup on test days at the track, but I'd go Holley 750 all the way if your concerned with tuning and tenths at the track, if not.. a nice Vacuum Secondary or even an AVS Edelbrock works well.
 
#36 ·
Got a quote from Patrick at Prosystems on a carb.

"For your Street/Road Race program, we can build you one of our XC series HP Gasoline double pumpers that offers great performance, incredibly quick throttle response and can be set up to be perfect for your application.

It has the good HP Series main body, bowls and blocks in a polished finished, our adjustable air bleed configuration, non-stick gaskets, Wedged floats (to offset G-forces), CNC Billet baseplate, rear anti-siphon mods (for hard braking), a complete wet-flow portfolio, a real sharp piece with stepped dog leg boosters, the new big sight glass bowls, VENOM II Black Billet metering blocks and hi-flow needle and seats.

Just bolt on and go.

Typically I see a 20-30 hp improvement over an off the shelf unit with much better driveability.

We'll size it for the exact cfm range when it is on the wet flow bench to match your programs needs.

But it'll probably end up being in the 780-800 REAL cfm range.

Its priced at $670.00 and UPS freight Continental USA is only $18.00

If this works for you, just e or call me wth a Credit Card # when you're ready and I can get it built.

We are on a 4 day build time.

Heres a link to a photo and some more info:

CIRCLE TRACK/ROAD RACING SERIES
"

What are your thoughts? Stick with a more "streetable" off the shelf carb, or ya'll think this would be a smiles for miles setup, given the price?
 
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