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Old 06-02-2011, 04:44 PM
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New build *problems*

First i would like to say hello to all, am new to the site but have browsed here a few times. Now down to the 3 issues i have. First is a list of the motor, All parts brand new. She sits in a 87 firebird. I also fabricated the air dam under the radiator. Its about 3.5 inches down to scoop the air up in the radiator.

- 96' sbc 350 .030 over, decked, honed, poly motor mounts
-Eagle 383 forged bottom end, Cast crank, flat top +5cc 11:1 compression
-Complete ARP engine bolts from pan to intake
-Edelbrock RPM Air Gap Intake
-AFR #1040, upgraded springs
-Comp Cam ultra pro magnum rocker arms 1.52
-Mike jones custom grind cam 234/236dur .579 lift
-Manley double roller timing chain
-MSD Distributor Kit
-Melling oil pump
-Mallory fuel pressure regulator
-1 inch carb spacer
-Quick Fuel 750, mechanical secondaries Q series
-6.325" ATI super damper harmonic balancer
- Champions 3 core aluminum radiator, 2 16 inch zirgo electric fans 3000cfm each
-Dyno Dons headers, electric cutout, full 3inch exhaust
-Built 700r4, non lockup 3k stall, B@m megashifter
-Waterpump is reverse flow (serpentine setup) Stock GM
-160 stat

Issue 1
Vibration at low 2000 rpm range. I dont notice much at idle rather then the whole car shaking, and dont notice any when i romp on it. Rotating assembly is internal, balancer is for a 350 internal/nuetral, flexplate came off the 96 tahoe, which ive read is internal

Issue 2
Car over heats. I can make it 5 miles or so before she is at 220, and thats with both fans on at all times. I pulled the cap off the radiator and she is flowing through the radiator. Also put a purple bottle of coolant in ( forgot name ) didnt help.

Issue 3
Battery doesnt charge. Went through 2 alternators, stock for 350 camaro, tried optimum red top, then switched to a deep cell yellow top. Both are dead now. Electric fans, 1 is wired to a switch, then to the battery with a built in fuse. Other is on a relay, then to the asseccory box, which i unplug when i turn the car off. Tach at the moment is wired to the battery, no ligghts hooked up. Fuel pump is wired to a switch as its an intank fuel pump for the 2.8l that came in the car.

Any ideas and areas to attack? I was going to try a 180 stat, but if the car doesnt cool while driving i doubt it will work. Vibration stumps me. All the wires i didnt need from the harness i cut, and electrical taped them. That shouldnt be an issue right?

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Old 06-02-2011, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383bird
First i would like to say hello to all, am new to the site but have browsed here a few times. Now down to the 3 issues i have. First is a list of the motor, All parts brand new. She sits in a 87 firebird. I also fabricated the air dam under the radiator. Its about 3.5 inches down to scoop the air up in the radiator.

- 96' sbc 350 .030 over, decked, honed, poly motor mounts
-Eagle 383 forged bottom end, Cast crank, flat top +5cc 11:1 compression
-Complete ARP engine bolts from pan to intake
-Edelbrock RPM Air Gap Intake
-AFR #1040, upgraded springs
-Comp Cam ultra pro magnum rocker arms 1.52
-Mike jones custom grind cam 234/236dur .579 lift
-Manley double roller timing chain
-MSD Distributor Kit
-Melling oil pump
-Mallory fuel pressure regulator
-1 inch carb spacer
-Quick Fuel 750, mechanical secondaries Q series
-6.325" ATI super damper harmonic balancer
- Champions 3 core aluminum radiator, 2 16 inch zirgo electric fans 3000cfm each
-Dyno Dons headers, electric cutout, full 3inch exhaust
-Built 700r4, non lockup 3k stall, B@m megashifter
-Waterpump is reverse flow (serpentine setup) Stock GM
-160 stat

Issue 1
Vibration at low 2000 rpm range. I dont notice much at idle rather then the whole car shaking, and dont notice any when i romp on it. Rotating assembly is internal, balancer is for a 350 internal/nuetral, flexplate came off the 96 tahoe, which ive read is internal

Issue 2
Car over heats. I can make it 5 miles or so before she is at 220, and thats with both fans on at all times. I pulled the cap off the radiator and she is flowing through the radiator. Also put a purple bottle of coolant in ( forgot name ) didnt help.

Issue 3
Battery doesnt charge. Went through 2 alternators, stock for 350 camaro, tried optimum red top, then switched to a deep cell yellow top. Both are dead now. Electric fans, 1 is wired to a switch, then to the battery with a built in fuse. Other is on a relay, then to the asseccory box, which i unplug when i turn the car off. Tach at the moment is wired to the battery, no ligghts hooked up. Fuel pump is wired to a switch as its an intank fuel pump for the 2.8l that came in the car.

Any ideas and areas to attack? I was going to try a 180 stat, but if the car doesnt cool while driving i doubt it will work. Vibration stumps me. All the wires i didnt need from the harness i cut, and electrical taped them. That shouldnt be an issue right?
Quote:
-Eagle 383 forged bottom end, Cast crank, flat top +5cc 11:1 compression
With a cast crank its not a forged bottom end !!!!

The flex plate off a 96 will be an extrenal balanced flywheel look and see if there is a weight weled on it.

Who balanced the rotator???

Over heating can be a timing issue??
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
flat top +5cc 11:1 compression
If they're +5 cc domes, they're not flat tops.

Quote:
160 stat
You're thermostat is too cold, coolant isn't staying in the radiator long enough to give up any heat. Do you have a tight fitting shroud?

Quote:
All the wires i didnt need from the harness i cut, and electrical taped them. That shouldnt be an issue right?
Well, that depends on what you cut or thought you didn't need, there's an obvious wiring problem....
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Old 06-02-2011, 05:55 PM
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Yup... Check your flexplate. One piece rear main seal cranks are internally balanced on the damper end, but externally balanced on the flexplate end. If you use a 1 piece rear main seal, you've got to use a flexplate with a weight. If it's a 2 piece rear main seal, the flexplate shouldn't have a weight. If your block is a '96, it should have a 1 piece rear main seal , so it should have a weight.

What is your timing and jet size in the carb? What head gaskets are you using?
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:01 PM
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With a cast crank its not a forged bottom end !!!!
Take it up with summit and jegs. The listing i bought said forged rotating assembly, one with cast and one with forged crank lol If it makes you feel better i can repost it and say forged pistons and rods and cast crank if you like....

Quote:
The flex plate off a 96 will be an extrenal balanced flywheel look and see if there is a weight weled on it.
if my memory serves me correctly i didnt see any weights on the flexplate. I will double look it though! seems vibration is coming from the front of the trans tunnel. Where did you find the 96 tahoe blocks had external balance flexplate? Everything ive read was internal, but ill take your word for it



Quote:
Over heating can be a timing issue??
The guy who put the motor together adjusted my carb and played with the timing. It was dieseling bad on the first few startups. It has only happened once since he did a minor tune. Seeing my car overheated quickly when he did the tuning i couldnt finish it. Right now it sits at 10 degrees at idle and total of 34. He said it might want more timing but we didnt have a chance to check.

The car will be put on a dyno after all the kinks are out of it and its broken in for the proper tune. Is it possible that spark plugs can make the motor run hot??? Am running the autolite 3935 plugs.

thanks for the help
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:13 PM
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If they're +5 cc domes, they're not flat tops.
Seems alot of confusion with what i have and what i dont have. Heres a link to the rotating assembly. Please take a look. Am just telling you guys what the kit says i bought
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ESP-B13056L030/

Quote:
You're thermostat is too cold, coolant isn't staying in the radiator long enough to give up any heat. Do you have a tight fitting shroud?
I have no room for a shroud. Seeing i have two 16 inch fans on the radiator one is in front, and one is behind it, as a pusher/puller setup. The overlap probably 2 inches. I fabricated them 1/2 inch away from the radiator.

Quote:
Well, that depends on what you cut or thought you didn't need, there's an obvious wiring problem....
All the ground wires are in place, all wires to starter is there, only wires i hacked from the harness is the wires that went to the efi 2.8 motor. Seeing i went carb i didnt need alot of those.



Quote:
Yup... Check your flexplate. One piece rear main seal cranks are internally balanced on the damper end, but externally balanced on the flexplate end. If you use a 1 piece rear main seal, you've got to use a flexplate with a weight. If it's a 2 piece rear main seal, the flexplate shouldn't have a weight. If your block is a '96, it should have a 1 piece rear main seal , so it should have a weight.

What is your timing and jet size in the carb? What head gaskets are you using?
the flexplate came out of the tahoe, i marked front and back on the flexplate. Only thing different is i put nuts on the back of the convertor. Will that cause a vibration?
timing is 10 degrees total 34. ( Still needs more timing done ). Head gaskets are felpro performance steel.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FPP-1142/

Last edited by 383bird; 06-02-2011 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:30 PM
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The pusher-puller fan deal w/o a shroud is the root of the problem w/the overheating, IMO. You need a fan shroud, mount the fans as pullers.

The "+5cc" can be the valve reliefs of a FT piston. The manufacturers and catalogs will use "+" and "-" interchangeably, depending on whose parts you're looking at. The CR calculators are the same way.

1986- up 1-piece rear main seal OEM engines all use a counterweighted flexplate and a neutral balance damper. I would expect your flexplate to be the same, along w/a neutral damper.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:44 PM
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Seeing its impossible to run a shroud with 2 16 inch fans, your saying one fan with a shroud would be better? is 3000cfm enough to cool a 500hp 383?

Flexplate am using came off the 96 tahoe, i just confirmed it, i marked it with in and out when i took it off the truck. Balancer is internal/neutral
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ATI-917781/
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:45 PM
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Hi welcome to Hotrodders. I am fairly new to SBC engines myself and own 5 of them now, in different sizes and years , I have done a lot of research , and the link above I found by using the search function on this site.
I will stick my neck on the line and state that I found that one piece seal blocks are external balance from the factory , the flywheel/flexiplate is weighted , A Lunati 383 crankshaft I bought for a one piece seal project engine is internally balanced( with a fairly big amount of Mallory) the flexiplate I bought for it is neutral balanced,as is the harmonic balancer on the front.
On the overheating , is it possible to use a mechanical fan+shroud from the original set up the car originally had,that system obviously did cool the engine from new.Then when you establish you have things under control then convert it to electric fans.Finally the altenator is not working ,possibily because of the wires you cut!!!! , you could buy a one wire altenator, whatever best of luck sorting things out................Seems like Cobalt was typing faster than me. but he is just re- inforcing the the balance details as accurate

Last edited by technicaltom; 06-02-2011 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:46 PM
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I agree with cobalt on the fans. But also wonder about the air dam you built. GM had a plastic air damn that bolted to the bottom of the radiator support that was pretty large and if they are not in place the car will run hot on the highway.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383bird
Take it up with summit and jegs. The listing i bought said forged rotating assembly, one with cast and one with forged crank lol If it makes you feel better i can repost it and say forged pistons and rods and cast crank if you like....

thanks for the help
Your the one that said its a forged bottom end!! If those are sir rods good luck with them as we have seen to many that when taken apart and retorqued they will distort up to .003. Iguess you could say its semi forged bottom end!!

Were the pin end of the rods hone for pin fit or did you assemble out of the box? Same with the pistons but if they are mahle pistons they should be fine.

Who did the balancing?? As there cast cranks are balanced to a target bob weight of appox 1900 grams.

If your cranks was balanced to your parts you should have a balance card or they should be able to get you one! I would certainly check into it.

Good luck

Last edited by CNC BLOCKS NE; 06-02-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:51 PM
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How much was it "decked"? How far in the hole is the piston? If they cut it to zero deck height, what thickness head gasket, and what quench? I'm trying to determine what your actual c.r. is.

If they left the piston .025 in the hole, using a .041 gasket and the AFR's are 65 cc, you have 10.35. Zero deck will leave you with near 11:1 with a .041 gasket, but tight quench.
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Old 06-02-2011, 06:57 PM
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Your the one that said its a forged bottom end!! If those are sir rods good luck with them as we have seen to many that when taken apart and retorqued they will distort up to .003. Iguess you could say its semi forged bottom end!!

Were the pin end of the rods hone for pin fit or did you assemble out of the box? Same with the pistons but if they are mahle pistons they should be fine.

Who did the balancing??
Am not gonna get in a pissing match with you. All am doing is relating a message from what i've been told lol I dont know it all, hell i dont know half of it! if i did then i wouldnt be here asking questions Summit techs told me it was a forged bottom end with a cast crank. There was a listing of non forged that i could get for $800 or so, or i could get forged with cast crank or all forged. Am just a messenger! lol They are mahle pistons

I had the mechanic check the balance of this set and he said everything was good. He did mention it took him some time because it was press fit rings or something?..... The kit came balanced from eagle, from what eagle said, i called them, and also mechanic checked it.
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:03 PM
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How much was it "decked"? How far in the hole is the piston? If they cut it to zero deck height, what thickness head gasket, and what quench? I'm trying to determine what your actual c.r. is.

If they left the piston .025 in the hole, using a .041 gasket and the AFR's are 65 cc, you have 10.35. Zero deck will leave you with near 11:1 with a .041 gasket, but tight quench.
Mechanic said the block was off 10 thousands if i remember correctly. He said he decked it to zero, or damn near zero. I said 11:1 because of the kit i bought, again going from what manufactures say. I didnt do the quench calculations as i didnt understand the programs to do it. Am no mechanic, just know whatever i've read. Which couldnt be the truth either : /
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Old 06-02-2011, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 383bird
Am not gonna get in a pissing match with you. All am doing is relating a message from what i've been told lol I dont know it all, hell i dont know half of it! if i did then i wouldnt be here asking questions Summit techs told me it was a forged bottom end with a cast crank. There was a listing of non forged that i could get for $800 or so, or i could get forged with cast crank or all forged. Am just a messenger! lol They are mahle pistons

I had the mechanic check the balance of this set and he said everything was good. He did mention it took him some time because it was press fit rings or something?..... The kit came balanced from eagle, from what eagle said, i called them, and also mechanic checked it.
If the mechanic checked it out and spun the crank up in a crank shaft balancer there should not be any issue with the balance, I have to ask did they actually spin the crank up with your flex plate or did he just weigh the parts??

I have seen prebalanced eagle rotators off as much as 32 grams on one end.

Something is just not adding up is why I am asking these questions!!!!
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