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Old 01-30-2011, 06:46 PM
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New Edelbrock Pontiac heads

Man, now I am nothing but confused.

It isn't like Pontiac engine builders have a decent choice of affordable heads for a Pontiac build, but now something strange has happened to the offerings out there.

Edelbrock has made the Performer series Pontiac head for a number of years, and has published flow charts for the 89cc head as well as the 72 cc head.

Who would have thunk that the 72 cc head flowed better. The touchy part is that these heads are patterned after the Pontiac RAM AIR IV round port heads and require expensive headers.

Pontiac has now introduced a D port head for the Pontiac.... has a heart-shaped combustion chamber like a Pontiac Vortec. Click for Link

The only bummer is that this new kid on the block doesn't flow as well as the old Performer offering.

What the heck is up with that? I mean, the new D Port head is even more expensive! That really adds insult to injury, no?

Is "Less" the new "More"?

Who is left for a guy to trust these days?

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Old 01-30-2011, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
Man, now I am nothing but confused.

It isn't like Pontiac engine builders have a decent choice of affordable heads for a Pontiac build, but now something strange has happened to the offerings out there.

Edelbrock has made the Performer series Pontiac head for a number of years, and has published flow charts for the 89cc head as well as the 72 cc head.

Who would have thunk that the 72 cc head flowed better. The touchy part is that these heads are patterned after the Pontiac RAM AIR IV round port heads and require expensive headers.

Pontiac has now introduced a D port head for the Pontiac.... has a heart-shaped combustion chamber like a Pontiac Vortec. Click for Link

The only bummer is that this new kid on the block doesn't flow as well as the old Performer offering.

What the heck is up with that? I mean, the new D Port head is even more expensive! That really adds insult to injury, no?

Is "Less" the new "More"?

Who is left for a guy to trust these days?
A Pontiac Vortec huh? Why not build a Chevy Vortec?
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:03 PM
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those are nice heads. Did you notice the spark plug is canted toward the exhaust, sweet.
those heads are awesome. I wish i could afford a set. I think they flow better than the best stock pontiac head.The combustion chamber is where the best part is in my opinion
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:06 PM
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I already have a Chevy Vortec I am driving on the street at the moment. (And enjoying every bit of it!)

I have a 400 Pontiac in my garage on the engine stand that I am beginning to assemble some parts for. What I have so far is replacement connecting Rods to replace the "Rev-Bombs" that come stock. I have considered bumping up the displacement with a stroker crank & over-bore, but am having second thoughts about needing to get away from the stock 400 cu displacement.

I am hoping to put some Pontiac muscle together to power an early model S-10 Blazer into the 11's.

Blazer will not see any time on the street, so I can get as crazy as I wish at this point!
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:12 PM
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It's your money.
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:50 PM
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This is $why$ we put chevies in our pontiacs.
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:57 PM
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What happened to the cool Sunbird project you had the Poncho 400 for?? I was hoping to see more on that.

There are other better Pontiac heads if you get away from Edelbrock. None of Edelbrocks heads impress me, all are low on flow.

WDCreech would be the guy to ask here at Hotrodders.

Why mess up an S-10 with Pontiac power??
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
What happened to the cool Sunbird project you had the Poncho 400 for?? I was hoping to see more on that.

There are other better Pontiac heads if you get away from Edelbrock. None of Edelbrocks heads impress me, all are low on flow.

WDCreech would be the guy to ask here at Hotrodders.

Why mess up an S-10 with Pontiac power??
My Sunbird was not meant to be... I have two boys, successful, and this build was going to be one of those cool father/son projects. Only thing that was not figured into the equations was my sons having families & expenses of their own, and as it turned out, Dad was the only one with the time and money to make this happen. I could never figure out how they could have time to take my tools from my garage back to their homes, but not have time for paling around with me.

I hated to have to get rid of the Sunbird, but squeezing the 400 into the engine bay did not leave room for much else. A small block chevy would have been a better go. People out there make almost everything needed for the project. Too big of a project for just me to take on alone.

What I liked about the Sunbird was the vehicle weight! Fly-weight for the 400 to push down the strip, no? I am thinking that a S-10 blazer would be a light-weight as well (first generation... ugly, but light). I also am much more comfortable having to fabricate those bits & pieces if they go into a car with a frame! I can peel the fenders & front end off & have all the room in the world to figure things out... and weld.

Perhaps I am a sorry & sentimental old fool, but I still remember my high school days & Pontiac was a huge part in that. The first trip for me through the quarter mile was driving a pal's Pontiac. My best friend's father had a Pontiac station wagon we use to street race.

I have no idea what motor was in it, but he kicked a lot of butt with me riding witness as shotgun. Building a Pontiac would be something just a little different than what the next guy has. I could be the crazy old guy running a Pontiac... and that would be fine with me.

My honest-to-God hope is that perhaps F-BIRD'88 might have another build I could suck out of his wealth of experience. I took advantage of one of his recommended builds for my Vortec.

His Vortec build was kick-butt-don't-look-back scary fast!
My wife won't even slide behind the wheel of this truck, and one of my sons refuses to floor it when he takes his ol' Dad out for a spin.

Don't know how many thousand miles I have on it now, but I swear to God... it has added years to my life!
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72

Why mess up an S-10 with Pontiac power??
I have been hanging around v8s10.org a bit... they have a nice racing forum there with some nice builds.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:59 PM
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How about a simple low cost supercharged 400 Poncho in the S-10.

Stock heads are fine. with home porting. a low cr is desirable.

Weiand 177 supercharger custom modified pontiac intake manifold.
The Edelbrock Torker II pontiac would be the choice.
Moderate (bolt in) crane Hyd cam.

cheapy GTO-Firebird headers cut up and rewelded to fit the S-10 chassis.
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Old 01-30-2011, 10:52 PM
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Here is your donor intake manifold Offenhauser #5963.


Top of the manifold would need to be miiled flat, parallel to the crank, ready of a bolt on aluminum blower mounting plate. Then the plenum opened up and hand contour blended.

Crane powermax cam H-296-2 #284281

850-950-1050 carb.
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:26 PM
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its all about the time and money for pontiacs..... people build chevys because they wanna do something everyone and their mother has!

pontiac peope know that these parts are expensive so only the true diehards will take on this endeavor.

putting a chevy engine in a pontiac? might as well go get a 30,000 mile jap create engine.

low budget pontiac enthusiast's will take what they have, and make what they don't, or cant afford. if you want aluminum heads, you must shell out the clams. i myself cannot afford all these high priced items. so i make do with what i got.
lets take a look at the reality of these heads.
what we do know is that aluminum is light and dissipates heat alot faster than cast iron.
and everyone knows the cooler your A/F ratio, the more efficient your power plant will be.
cast iron heads do not transfer heat very well, there heavy as hell, but the one thing people don't realize is that cast iron heads last a hell of alot longer.
esp if its a daily driver.

lets analyze a few different types of heads...

lets take the infamous 6x-4 head which is a rather low compression head compared to some of the other cast iron versions. stock flow (based on intake flow @ .500) for this head, unmolested is ~ 205 cfm(intake) with 2.11(I) and 1.66(E) valves. this is a D port head.... and for 3-400 bucks you can have these redone to new condition depending what valves and springs you use. a bit of porting work and these heads can flow up to 250 cfm.

now for 1600 bucks you can grab a set of edelbrock performer's D ports that flow @ 195 in raw form, same valves and small combustion chamber size.
these heads are awesome because they redesigned the combustion chamber for ignition and flow promotion. jim butler ports these heads to JUST over 300 cfm.
the round ports can flow a bit more. but not much!! 315 CFM

now lets say we won the lottery...... there are way more options for us!

KRE heads 1900 bucks for a set of 250 cfm raw ports another 800 bucks to take them up to 325 cfm.

now if you won the lottery and then robbed a bank, you can get some of the JBP tiger heads, the heads of all pontiac heads, but at the price of 6200 bucks. but flow more than 400 cfm.

and if you wanted to spend 10 grand, i can get you a set of
RA V heads!!!! (cast iron) don't ask the flow, i just know where they are, but he wouldn't let me touch em without the cash in my hands!

suddenly a set of 400-500 dollar headers seems minuscule!

i have built a 77 firebird with a pontiac 400 4 speed and 72 cc edel heads for a friend.
he didn't wanna spend the money on the oval port headers either..
i told him that i would fab up a set for him, but i am going to charge him hourly. it took me about 12 hours @ 60 bucks a hr to make them.
at that time he was really mad because he was gonna spent more on my fabbed headers, than he would have done on a set of Headmen hustlers.
needless to say he bought a set of headman's... and because he decided to use a early block in a later model car, and adapter plates to mount the engine, his 550 dollar headers would not fit his 4 speed car with A/C.
he ended up paying me for my headers and sending the headman's back.

THE BOTTOM LINE IS...... DO AS MUCH OF THE WORK HUMANLY POSSIBLE!!!
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88
Here is your donor intake manifold Offenhauser #5963.


Top of the manifold would need to be miiled flat, parallel to the crank, ready of a bolt on aluminum blower mounting plate. Then the plenum opened up and hand contour blended.

Crane powermax cam H-296-2 #284281

850-950-1050 carb.

PSSSSST! ISNT THIS AN OLDSMOBILE INTAKE???? ALOT MORE FAB WORK REQUIRED TO ADAPT TO A PONTIAC
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Old 01-30-2011, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DENCOUCH
...The only bummer is that this new kid on the block doesn't flow as well as the old Performer offering...
Edelbrock is reaching out to a slightly different market segment with their new line of Pontiac D-port heads. They are keeping the runner size small to keep up velocity on mild builds - something that the old round port heads didn't do very well. I suspect that the higher velocity and great chambers will produce much more torque and horsepower.

Then there is the new Pro-Port Raw design that will have outstanding flow numbers in the hands of someone like Dave Bisschop of SD Performance.

The old combustion chamber design on the old heads left much to be desired. Anytime you end up running best with 40 degrees of timing, the chamber design sucks. As a comparison, the Kaufman heads require only 32 degrees total timing.

Also, stock RAIV heads flow around 195/151 and unported 6X heads flow around 167/113

Last edited by lust4speed; 01-30-2011 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by h0trod389
PSSSSST! ISNT THIS AN OLDSMOBILE INTAKE???? ALOT MORE FAB WORK REQUIRED TO ADAPT TO A PONTIAC
You are right that is a oldsmobile manifold. The pontiac manifold is similar flat single plane with a big carb pad. The offy part number is right.
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