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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 09:42 PM
adtkart@aol.com
 
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I say we vote for Vince to be the frst HR member to build a replica Camaro.
The only problem with that is the quality. Having seen many photos of his work, I think he will make it perfect. Then everyone will expect the same from theirs. He is a perfectionist for sure.

Aaron

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrowhead
I say we vote for Vince to be the frst HR member to build a replica Camaro.
I'm on it, when you guys gonna deliver it?

Vince
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2007, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by adtkart
The only problem with that is the quality. Having seen many photos of his work, I think he will make it perfect. Then everyone will expect the same from theirs. He is a perfectionist for sure.

Aaron
Thanks for the compliment, but you don't know me that well.

Vince
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2007, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloverby
You can state your opinion about the stang bodies here.

http://www.mustangsplus.com/WhatIS/graph.mv
That is an interesting read
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2007, 03:21 PM
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Yep. Seems folks opinions are all over the place concerning these new bodies.

Bottom line is you gotta have some cash to turn one of those bodies into a running and driving car.

The 60's cars have already aproached a price point that will prohibit allot of new / younger people from getting into the hobby in general. There's always that random deal someone can run across or a car that has been in a family for a long time but in general the hobby has gotten ridiculously expensive these days for the level of sophistication these cars posess.

Look at something like a 32 Ford. Those things have always been pricey since I've been able to drive. That goes for a kit or an original. Were are now seeing the same thing happen with the 60's era cars. Repro body or Original body, a nice example is gonna cost you some big bucks.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 05-05-2007, 07:47 PM
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It will be interesting how they are registered in different states. People talking about transfering the VIN tags from an old one to the new one, and such, can make it interesting. When you consider that the Stangs had the VIN stamped in a panel that is regularly replaced on the vehicles, it is kind of strange anyway. You could take an original door, make it fit the new body, and it is now carrying the original VIN.

In Virginia, when registering a special built vehicle, it is titled as the vehicle it most resembles anyway.

Aaron
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 04:51 AM
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Talking about original body fits and such...

My godfather, Walt Klimczak RIP, was the main assembly supt. at the Rouge for many years. When I was young he told me a story about a bad batch of frames they got from the frame plant. Here was the fix...

He got one extra guy to use chalk to mark an X on the frame about 6" back from the front...

Then he got one big guy to whack the X with a nine pound sledgehammer, 3 times ...

then the body would go on the frame.

The technology has improved today but all the cars of that era had big time fit and finish issues from the factory... no brand exempt... the cars with good quality had lots of hand work. It was another 20 years before people figured out how and why to tighten the sheet metal specs and improve the body fixture design to bring the gaps down and even.

If you ever see it pick up Bob Tasca's book "You will be Satisfied" ... he talks a little bit about the evolution of factory quality.

So, Brian, I am not disagreeing with you because I haven't seen the pieces... but I am not surprised and doubt anyone could do better without some reengineering of the originals and some real top quality die work.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 06:02 AM
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Most people never notice how bad things fit until there is an incident with them, like an accident. Working in a collision shop, we see it all the time. People will say, "The car was perfect before this".

We recently repaired a scratch on a Vette driver's door, and some scuffs on the front bumper. The vehicle was black, so it was panel painted like we do often there. The owner came back complaining about some problems with the car. There is now "acid rain" type spots on the lift gate, and orange peel on the passenger side. I gave the painter hell for getting that orange peel on the passenger side, when he painted the driver's door. He should have known better! LOL

I recently replaced a quarterpanel on a relatively new Impala. I was having a hard time with the fit of the taillight, as it wouldn't fit like the other side. One side flush, or out some, and the other was in some. I decided to check one that was in the lot, as we had several there. It appears that they all fit that way.

If these cars lasted that long, someone in 30 years would be saying that the repro parts fit like crap, because they can't get the tailights to fit right.

Aaron
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 09:37 AM
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Like I said, I have been doing this stuff since the time when working on one of these 67 Camaros or Mustangs was just a normal collision job. I know things didn't fit very well. Hell, my 65 Skylarks have HORRIBLE fit on the rear deck lids in particular.
pmeisel, like your bending the frame story, I have owned a number of 65 Skylarks, when looking over a new find one day I noticed that it too had this big dent in the underside of the deck lid. It seems that everyone I owned had this big dent right up in the middle between the hinges. We are talking a 3/8" deep six inch long or so dent in the inner panel structure of the lid. Well, it hit me, the lids were hit with a hammer to bring up the center of the hood on every car I had!

I see it at the NUMMI factory, they take a hammer and chisel like tool to bend the striker up or down on a 2007 Toyota Corolla right on the line still to this day.

The "Fit and finish" isn't even what I am talking about on these cars. I am talking STAMPING quality.

Next show, just rub your hands on these bodies. That is all I am asking. Go look at one as if you are doing an estimate for a customer, you WILL see them in a whole new light.

Is it better than replacing some rusted panels, that is all opinion. I can certainly see that side of it, rust sucks. Especially for someone out in the rust belt seeing a nice new shiny body, are you kidding? Spending a few hundred hours getting the body straight and panels to fit would be nothing compared to a rusty hulk and replacing floors and rockers.

I was VERY surprised when I checked out these bodies. Now, if you see one with me in mind and you look at it thru rose color glasses just to prove me wrong, then you will see them much better than they are. If you look at them thru clear glasses and you look it over as if you are going to have to fit the panels and prime and block the body to make a nice car, you will be just as surprised as I was. And remember, that is just the bare shell sitting there. There are HUNDREDS of pieces, chrome mouldings, hinges, latches, trim panels, lights, etc that have to be installed, EVERYONE Of them will most likely need work to fit.

Now, if you want to be honest, you will see what I did. I was honest with myself, I HATE fiberglass repro Ford Roadster bodies. I would NEVER own one, no history, it is just fake, no butts about it in my opinion. But when I looked at how nice that one fiberglass body was after looking at the steel one across the walk way, I woudn't hesitate for a second in recommending the fiberglass body over the steel one. If I were to want to build a repro 32 Ford Roadster, I would take that SUPER nice fiberglass body WAY before the steel on. There was just no comparison in the quality, NOT EVEN CLOSE. I would have never thought I would use a fiberglass body. But after looking at what was offered thru clear glasses, I can honestly say I have a whole new respect for the fiberglass bodies, there is a place for them in my opinion. Prior to closely checking out these bodies I would NEVER had thought that.

Go rub them, I think you will feel the same way. If you were to think that they are STILL better than a beat original, that is fine, and all opinion. But at least you will understand where I am coming from, they are ROUGH. In my opinon, JUNK, but at the very least you will agree they are ROUGH.

Brian
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 10:59 AM
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we keep talking about choice as if one could just decide ok I am going to buy that Mustang/Camaro today and get started but since I came up with the plan for the project I mentioned I have been looking for several months for a suitable car to start with, the pickin's have been slim! That is why I got so excited about the new bodies when I saw them, well the pics anyway, because either I am finding cars with wasted bodies or really nice examples at REALLY high prices! Most of these have questionable body work and I am sure a lot of hidden surprises but I still would rather have a real one if it is to be found, that is unless these repos turn out to be of decent quality and I am really anxious to see one close up.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 11:39 AM
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You know Red, I did a search of completed auctions on ebay and found some cars that were pretty darn interesting deals. A "Barn find" 68 Coupe that went for $6000 that seemed like a heck of a deal. A plane fair and rental car for three or four hundred bucks to go look at it, a trucking company to ship it to you for a grand and you are in a complete car for a half of the repro bare bodies cost! This is what I am talking about. I have friend with an almost rust free 57 Chevy two door hard top that is going to be sold in the near future. This thing has near perfect floors, NO patches needed. It is SUPER solid, near perfect original bumpers and chrome that have never been rechromed. It will be a super project for someone who wants a 100 point show car. It will likely go for about 25K. There is NO WAY you could collect even a fraction of the parts along with a repro body for that little money.

I sold a 65 Skylark two years ago that was absolutly rust free, NEVER had a hole in it (other than literally ONE small pin hole in the rear window). It still had Zinc plating on the body bolts! Still had the original black paint on the frame and SHINEY silver paint (the body color) on the under body! It went for a lousy $2800 and they guy paid about a grand to ship it to NY. Around the corner from me there is a 70ish Chevy pickup with next to zero rust and original paint for sale. I think he wants about $3500.00 for it. Again, $1500 for a plane ticket, and shipping it back (or drive it) and you get a rust free truck for 5K, you would spend three times that for the patch panels parts to build a similar one. There are PLENTY of cars out there, you just have to go some distance to get them. I sold a 65 Sport Wagon once where the guy flew out, had a little vacation in California and drove the Wagon back to Mich. A totally rust free car, for pennies on the dollar compared to a repro body.

You have to add up all the numbers HONESTLY ALL the numbers and see what is best for you. There are THOUSANDS of dollars in parts needed to use one of those repro bodies. If you had a parts car, that makes a lot more sense, you swap the VIN and stuff and then destroy the old one. But even then, how many of the parts on the rust bucket are junk along with the body? If you have a car with rusted out wheel wells and floors, the axles. bumpers, brackets, hinges and everything else are going to be pretty rusted too!

Buying a nicer car for more than the repro body makes more sense being you will likely have to replace many of the thousands of parts on the parts car as well.

Just add up ALL the numbers, write them down. Start at the front of the car and look in a catalog and start writing them down, don't forget a part, you may find that flying to see a car isn't that out of the question.

Brian
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 05:38 PM
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OK.... Now it seems that it has gone from that those bodies are "junk" and would take a lot of work to be any good, to that it doesn't make financial sense.

HEY... LOOK AROUND!!!!

Vince... That car of yours looks great. I bet if you took a calculator and added up all of the costs, figured out the total hours you have in it, and calculate the labor cost at a reasonable rate, you will find out what that thing really cost. I'd bet that it is a little over the costs of the vehicles Brian is mentioning that he feels we should purchase. There are other examples on this forum alone. I only mentioned Vince's as an example, not to pick on him, but many of us have sat back and watched him do a super job with that.

Consider this. You have a car that has been severly damaged in an accident or is badly rust damaged. You have the option of saving the body style that you want. Is it going to be work? OF COURSE IT IS! You have the option of spending a lot of money replacing panels on that one with repro parts, and making them fit. You then hope that you got all of the damage straightened out, or rust removed/repaired. You also have the choice of ordering a new shell and assembling the parts to that. It will take work to do it. It will also take some money to do it.

This all may not make sense to Brian Martin, but to Hotrodders, it makes sense.

As an added note, I have a car in my shop right now that doesn't make sense either. The guy bought it for $14000, and will likely have twice that much in it when it is done. There are several parts that have had to be hand made, because they are not available repro or otherwise, but they were severly damaged by rust That car is a 67 Mustang Convert. that the owner thought was in good shape when he bought it. The expense makes sense to him, as it is the car that he wants.

Aaron
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nobody
OK.... Now it seems that it has gone from that those bodies are "junk" and would take a lot of work to be any good, to that it doesn't make financial sense.
Isn't that the same thing? Time=Money plus, it isn't allowed to add thoughts on forums? You have to stick to one idea and not add or change. Who makes up these rules? I didn't read that in the forum bylines when I registered. I can't respond to what someone says without being attacked for my thoughts? Can someone lead me to the FAQ page that says I can't discuss a subjet without being ridiculed? Why is it there are only two or so people on the whole net that think that?

Personally the people who stick to only one thought process never learn a thing. They will fight until the cows come home to prove they are right instead of listening.

I have listened to what people have said and others would rather argue.

I have felt these bodies, I think they are JUNK. Now, the funny thing is, I have been told I don't know how to do this work and I am not a "show car builder". Well, if this guy who knows nothing thinks these bodies are rough, can you imagine what a "REAL" bodyman would think? LOLOLOL

We all have an opinion, I have felt the darn things, I think they are junk. So, there have been a number of strong opinions on this thread, why is only mine out of line? Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Is it someones friend who makes them or something? Who is saying someone here dresses funny or their wife or grand children are ugly?

As I said, if a guy hasn't felt these bodies (I was BLOWN away when I did) he really has nothing to say to debate MY thoughts on what they felt and looked like.

The Camaro Coupe body I saw at NACE with the 90ish Camaro front structure that used 90ish suspension front and rear along with the motor, now THAT was pretty cool. But agian, the body was ROUGH as hell.

This is the fact, go look at them. If you want to buy one, cool, go and look at one. If it meets your expectations and will fill your needs, buy it. It isn't calling you a bad guy, you aren't "dumb" for doing so. If you were to spend the time it would end up being a damn cool rust free car. If that is what you want, cool, I want to see it when it is done, cool. It doesn't fulfill my needs because I don't even want one of these cars. I took the time to look at them to advise people on the forums who may be looking at them.

If I had bought one of these bodies with the image I had in my head and it was delievered to my door step, I would have been breathing fire when I saw how rough it was. If my looking at them and being able to save someone from that agony, then I am happy. If you want one go into it with that additude, go look at it and feel it. If it meets your expectations, buy it.


I only looked so I could advise others, I have no plans on buying one. They are cool, but I have had my 68 Camaro RS, I have no desire to have another. I have lived vicariously thru the customers who have had me build them Mustangs. I can go drive my sister-in-laws 65 Fastback V8 that I built with my brother. I think it is one of the coolest Pony cars ever, but I have no desire to own one at this time in my life. If that is what you want, one of these bodies may be the ticket.

But don't go into it thinking it is a "brand new" body like you would have gotten from the Ford or GM 30 years ago, that just isn't the case.

Brian
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 08:34 PM
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I have simply pointed out what I know. That these are options that give people a chance to build or keep the body style that they want. It will be a lot of work, but most car projects are.

For a person that in the past has posted: That they would not work at a GM shop because they are a PIA to work on. Works in a shop that they say NEVER uses aftermarket or used parts. Works on mostly newer Toyotas, and doesn't do any work at home. And even made it sound like it would be an unbearable job to replace a quarterpanel on an older car with a used one, I can see where it would be too much for them to use one of those bodies. They are not perfect, so not suitable for use.

Obviously, since Martinsr, the "Autobody God" has called them junk, then no one should buy them. Since spending money on the car you want is senseless in his opinion, everyone should drive older minivans that they can get for $500 and be happy.

I have now been labled as "Nobody", everyone should ignore anything that I say. No problem! I am tired of reading his babbling anyway.

Aaron
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 05-06-2007, 09:48 PM
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Geeze guys, I'm sorry I even made the post. Had I known it was going to come to this I would not have. I just thought the new Camaro bodies would be an alternative to the rusted hulks that people are selling for a premium price today. I have no illusions about what it takes to make one of these presentable, God only knows the struggle I had with my Gibbon body . As I stated before , I would relish the opportunity to build one of those bodies. I hope we can end this discussion on a positive note and not have any more *** for tat slug fest.

Vince
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