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Old 12-06-2013, 09:52 PM
Ryan
 
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New here but I have a lot of information and advice to share

New to this forum and I have some information I would like to share in my first posting. I recently worked on a gentleman's 67 Nova that had a LS3 crate motor and 4L65-E transmission in it. This guy brought me his car to fix because the 5 guys he took it to before couldn't figure out what was causing it to not want to run right on hot restarts.

The control system was a GM E67 ECM and GM T42 TCM. Whoever tuned the ECM before locked it so I was unable to get inside and see what had been changed, but judging from the VIN number, it was a 2008 GM 5.3L Truck based tune.

To make a long story short, I ended up figuring out that the aftermarket wiring harness he purchased did not have a PWR TRN relay in it. This relay is controlled by the ECM and supplies power to various engine devices including the ECM's own DBW (drive by wire) control system. And what was happening was when he turned the key off, the ECM would try to command the throttle shut but it couldn't because there was no power to do so (due to this relay being omitted by the harness builder). The ECM leaves the PWR/TRN relay powered up for about 2 seconds after you key off the ignition. To complicate matters, whoever tuned the ECM disabled the trouble code associated with that system which would have led anyone diagnosing his problem directly to it. I added the relay and made the appropriate wiring changes which fixed that problem.

In addition, the truck based tune didn't run the LS3 engine all that great. I suppose whoever made it figured that was what they had to run since the LS3 Corvette never used a 4L65-E auto trans (it used either a manual 6-speed or 6 speed auto which used a different TCM). Well since I had to replace the ECM due to the original being locked, I went ahead and tried loading an 08 Vette LS4 AT tune into the ECM and leaving the 08 Truck TCM tune in that module. Guess what - IT WORKED FINE. This was nice because I don't think the engine ever ran as good as it did once I was done with it. And it proves that the Corvette ECM programming meant to work with a 6-speed auto TCM will also work fine with a 4-speed auto TCM.

What I learned from this is even these newer OE GM computer systems can be used in these hot rod swaps as long as your electrical/tuning guy knows what they are doing.

I only work with GM makes but I consider myself well versed on all of their EFI products so if anyone has a question, please feel free to ask. I try to keep up on the latest and greatest offerings from them. Sadly, this doesn't leave much time for learning other systems (ie: Ford, Chrysler, etc).
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:13 PM
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Welcome aboard, Ryan.
Thanks for sharing; sounds like you're going to be able to help many of us.
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Old 12-07-2013, 10:44 AM
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The T42 TCM was used with both the GEN 4 LS2 and the GEN 4 LS3, makes sense that it worked once you got the correct calibrations installed.

So did you do any tuing for the guy or just leave the stock calibrations installed?

And yes, it always helps to have someone in the know dealing with harnesses and calibration or you get the harness maker blaming the tuner and vice versa.

CPP(Chev Perfomance PArts-old GMPP) offers bolt in LS3 6.2 L(376cid)(430hp) and blown 6.2L LSA(556hp) kits that include the ECM/TCM, engine, trans and harness as a kit. They are called the COnnect and Cruise packages.

$17,000 for the LSA/4l80e combo

$11,000 for the LS3 combo

CPP also offers complete engine control harnesses with wiring and ECM;s starting at $900.
These GEN4 engines and 4 speed auto and 6 speed auto transmissions are highly adaptable to old vehicle installs.

The aftermarket has even done some GEN 4 engine ECM retrofits onto the older Vortec 350 engines which allows for retrofitting the newer 6 speed transmissions into older vehicles.

I hope the 4l65e holds together behind the LS3. I'm not a fan of teh 700/60/60e/65e/70e but they do have their place. I dislike teh deep 1st gear ratio 3.06 which jumps down to 1.64:1 in 2nd, and the newer 6 speed autos are evn worse jumping from 4.03L1 1st to 2.36:1 2nd. Just way too much rpm drop IMO.
The 4l80e is about 55 lbs heavier than the 60e/65e is much stronger, but has the long 2.48:1 1st, but close ratios 2nd 1.48:1 and not the deepest 0.75:1 OD ratio.
I like the ratios of the 200r4, the in between 2.74:1 1st, 1.57:1 2nd with a deep 0.67:1 OD(same as the 6l80e/90e).

peace'
Hog
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:55 PM
Ryan
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
The T42 TCM was used with both the GEN 4 LS2 and the GEN 4 LS3, makes sense that it worked once you got the correct calibrations installed.
What production application used the LS3 engine with a T42 TCM?

Quote:
So did you do any tuing for the guy or just leave the stock calibrations installed?
The guy was using a 5-wire LS1 MAF sensor and I had to recalibrate the ECM's 08 Corvette LS3 tune for that. But the Corvette base tune ran that engine pretty darn well as it was so I didn't really have to do much with it aside from adjusting the MAF.

The TCM's tune needed a LOT of work. The shift firmness was OK but needed some help and the upshifts/downshifts were terrible. I fixed all that + increased the base pressure map (force motor table values) to help the trans live behind that LS3. How long it will live is anyone's guess because I don't know anything about it (ie: who built it, what mods were done, etc).

Quote:
The aftermarket has even done some GEN 4 engine ECM retrofits onto the older Vortec 350 engines which allows for retrofitting the newer 6 speed transmissions into older vehicles.

I hope the 4l65e holds together behind the LS3. I'm not a fan of teh 700/60/60e/65e/70e but they do have their place. I dislike teh deep 1st gear ratio 3.06 which jumps down to 1.64:1 in 2nd, and the newer 6 speed autos are evn worse jumping from 4.03L1 1st to 2.36:1 2nd. Just way too much rpm drop IMO.
The 4l80e is about 55 lbs heavier than the 60e/65e is much stronger, but has the long 2.48:1 1st, but close ratios 2nd 1.48:1 and not the deepest 0.75:1 OD ratio.
I like the ratios of the 200r4, the in between 2.74:1 1st, 1.57:1 2nd with a deep 0.67:1 OD(same as the 6l80e/90e).

peace'
Hog
The 4L60-E transmission isn't bad if it is properly built. I know some don't like the short 1st gear ratio, but it can really help the car out of the hole if the tires hook well.

The 4L80-E is a great trans, but like you said, it is massive and heavy so it doesn't appeal to everyone. I don't think the gearing is bad as long as you have an engine that makes enough torque. I'm a turbocharger guy so pretty much everything I build that uses a turbo isn't short in the torque department at all.

I don't know much about the 6 speed autos because I haven't had too many of those come thru the shop.

I agree, the 2004R transmission had great ratios. But what sucked about that trans was the same thing that sucked about the 700R4 - lack of computer controlled shifting. I think just about every hot rod I've driven that had a non-computer controlled auto trans had horrible shift points. A good friend of mine who has a 700R4 (in his '57 Chevy) that was supposedly "performance built" shifts like it came out of a truck. He has taken his trans back to the shop that originally built it half a dozen times and they can't make it any better (probably because it needs a new valve body and they refuse to replace it).

I used to have a 700R4 in one of my cars and I played around with the valve body and governor a lot - trying to get it to shift exactly when I wanted it to. But I could never get it quite right. There was always that certain throttle position where it was off just enough to be annoying. Ever since I upgraded to an electronically shifted auto, I have never wanted to go back (especially since I can adjust the tune myself to make it shift when and how I want).

BTW - Are you the same Hogg that was over on Monodax when they were still online?
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Old 12-08-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinister Performance View Post
What production application used the LS3 engine with a T42 TCM? I dont think there is one, sorry, I was confused with both teh LS2 and LS3 both being used in the C6 Vette.My apologies


Just to be clear, you are running an LS3 E67 ECM and a T42 ECM on a 65e correct? I am assuming the shift solenoids are the same sequence as the 60e/65e then, or did you have to do any fooling with the wire harness?

My apologies.


The guy was using a 5-wire LS1 MAF sensor and I had to recalibrate the ECM's 08 Corvette LS3 tune for that. But the Corvette base tune ran that engine pretty darn well as it was so I didn't really have to do much with it aside from adjusting the MAF.

Cool, was the 5 wire MAF screened?
The TCM's tune needed a LOT of work. The shift firmness was OK but needed some help and the upshifts/downshifts were terrible. I fixed all that + increased the base pressure map (force motor table values) to help the trans live behind that LS3. How long it will live is anyone's guess because I don't know anything about it (ie: who built it, what mods were done, etc).



The 4L60-E transmission isn't bad if it is properly built. I know some don't like the short 1st gear ratio, but it can really help the car out of the hole if the tires hook well.
Yes the low gearing 1st feels great and helps fuel economy getting the vehicle moving, the larger rpm drop with tighert TC's depending on engine, but again a looser TC does help.
The 4L80-E is a great trans, but like you said, it is massive and heavy so it doesn't appeal to everyone. I don't think the gearing is bad as long as you have an engine that makes enough torque. I'm a turbocharger guy so pretty much everything I build that uses a turbo isn't short in the torque department at all.

I don't know much about the 6 speed autos because I haven't had too many of those come thru the shop. I havent done much with them either, just slightly bothersome with all the shifting and large rpm drops. TCM calibration is make or break though.

I agree, the 2004R transmission had great ratios. But what sucked about that trans was the same thing that sucked about the 700R4 - lack of computer controlled shifting. I think just about every hot rod I've driven that had a non-computer controlled auto trans had horrible shift points. A good friend of mine who has a 700R4 (in his '57 Chevy) that was supposedly "performance built" shifts like it came out of a truck. He has taken his trans back to the shop that originally built it half a dozen times and they can't make it any better (probably because it needs a new valve body and they refuse to replace it).
That sucks, being able to dial in shiftpoint EXACTLY where you wish is pretty cool. An electronically controlled trans with 200r4 ratios, with 4l80e strength would be perfect. Might as well throw in a switch picth converter syetm as well while we're at it.
I used to have a 700R4 in one of my cars and I played around with the valve body and governor a lot - trying to get it to shift exactly when I wanted it to. But I could never get it quite right. There was always that certain throttle position where it was off just enough to be annoying. Ever since I upgraded to an electronically shifted auto, I have never wanted to go back (especially since I can adjust the tune myself to make it shift when and how I want).

BTW - Are you the same Hogg that was over on Monodax when they were still online?
Yes, that me I was a moderator over there. There was lots of good info over there. I really miss that site.

OH and, welcome here to Hotrodders. There are some decent people here.

peace
Hog
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
Just to be clear, you are running an LS3 E67 ECM and a T42 ECM on a 65e correct? I am assuming the shift solenoids are the same sequence as the 60e/65e then, or did you have to do any fooling with the wire harness?
Yes, I am running the E67 LS3 ECM and a T42 TCM with a 4L65-E. As far as I know, the 4L65-E is virtually the same transmission as the 4L60-E. The only difference, I think, is the 65 has the 5 planet gear set (which doesn't necessarily make them stronger, according to what my trans guru found out) and it has an input speed sensor. I do think some of the later 60's did receive the input speed sensor at some point though.



Quote:

Cool, was the 5 wire MAF screened?
Yes, and the reason why I didn't remove the screen was because this swap had one of those open element air filters mounted right on the MAF sensor, and the MAF was mounted as close to the throttle body as possible due to space constraints between the radiator and engine.

It actually had another 5-wire MAF on it that didn't have a screen; and when the radiator fans turned on, that messed with the MAF signal going to the ECM because the fans would blow air right into the filter and disturb the MAF's sensing element since it was right there. So installing the MAF w/ screen solved that problem.

In truth, what the guy really needs is a properly built cold air induction (tube) system so he isn't sucking hot radiator air into the engine. But it didn't sound like he was that concerned about gaining any more power out of his swap since he doesn't drive it hard anyway. He was just happy I got it running properly and solving all of this problems.


Quote:
Yes, that me I was a moderator over there. There was lots of good info over there. I really miss that site.
I too miss the monodax forum very much. Any idea if it will ever be resurrected?
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Old 12-09-2013, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Sinister Performance View Post
Yes, I am running the E67 LS3 ECM and a T42 TCM with a 4L65-E. As far as I know, the 4L65-E is virtually the same transmission as the 4L60-E. The only difference, I think, is the 65 has the 5 planet gear set (which doesn't necessarily make them stronger, according to what my trans guru found out) and it has an input speed sensor. I do think some of the later 60's did receive the input speed sensor at some point though.
Yes your right, I was comparing the 6 speed and the 60e/65e, if their solenoid sequence was the same?

Yes, and the reason why I didn't remove the screen was because this swap had one of those open element air filters mounted right on the MAF sensor, and the MAF was mounted as close to the throttle body as possible due to space constraints between the radiator and engine.

It actually had another 5-wire MAF on it that didn't have a screen; and when the radiator fans turned on, that messed with the MAF signal going to the ECM because the fans would blow air right into the filter and disturb the MAF's sensing element since it was right there. So installing the MAF w/ screen solved that problem.

In truth, what the guy really needs is a properly built cold air induction (tube) system so he isn't sucking hot radiator air into the engine. But it didn't sound like he was that concerned about gaining any more power out of his swap since he doesn't drive it hard anyway. He was just happy I got it running properly and solving all of this problems.
I bet he was happy you got her running. Its a good feeling being able to solve issues.


I too miss the monodax forum very much. Any idea if it will ever be resurrected?
No idea, impossible to reach the admin.

peace
Hog
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Old 12-23-2013, 03:42 PM
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Hello Ryan! I'm sure you don't remember me, but I've written to you in the past for help. I see you are still at it, I hope you are doing well!
Merry Christmas!
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