[wixomhead]

Hi,

I recently broke in my 460 ford with Comp Cam, hyd flat tappet lifters and roller tip rockers. I followed instructions for break in to the letter.

After a few hundred miles, I'm getting severe lifter tick across all rockers. Oil pressure excellent.

I removed valve covers found all rockers very slightly loose from side to side and pushrods I can easily turn between my fingers. When I crank the rocker nuts down to remove lash...the lash comes back very soon - it feels as though oil is leaving the lifters and they need to be tightened down even more.

Of course I thought I destroyed my cam during break in so I removed it an all the lifters. The lobe surfaces, bearing surfaces and lifters look excelent/perfect.

Any advice on what's happening? Help apprec.

[sheldonw]

depending on which comp lifters u used some are a bit noisey (pro magnum and high tech)

[wixomhead]

Thanks.

Not sure exactly what Comp Cams pn...

By "noisy", I assume you mean that the lifters won't pump up fully at idle and the rockers are a bit loose...which doesn't sound right to me...?

[sheldonw]

mine is fairly quiet at idle but around 1500 - 2000 kinda has that sewing machine sound to it

[wixomhead]

Got it.

At 800 RPM idle this thing sounds like its down 2 qts of oil. With the alum valve covers, it really echos, almost a knocking sound.

I've installed hyd lifters before. I roll the pushrod in my fingers, then tighten down the rocker arm nut until I can't rotate the pushrod anymore, then I turn it another 1/2 turn.

When I do this now, the rocker/push rod is tight like above. But I wait 5 mins, the rocker/push rod loosens up again.

I'm puzzled, I'm going to see my engine builder tomorrow...

[F-BIRD'88]

Is this a extreme energy cam?

[wixomhead]

Must be.....

Part Number is XE262H-10

I assume XE = Xtreme Energy?

[wixomhead]

Wait, yes it is an Extreme Energy cam

Correct Part Number = 34-238-4

[F-BIRD'88]

You have to realise that these "extreme" fast action cams have very intense short, rapid hyd clearance ramps, This combined with the lack of lifter internal hyd metering sizing quality result in a bit of idle noise in the valve train.
The rockers you are using tend to amplify that.
There is no free lunch when it comes to camshaft lobe design.
You give up a little quietness to gain a bit of engine torque and vacuum from a shorter more intense cam lobe seat design.
If you want a quite valve train at idle pick a cam lobe design that has gentler seat ramps. EG Crane HMV series cams are a good example if a series of cams that were designed to make good torque and power, yet run quiet at idle.
They have a more conservative set ramp design for high perf street motors.
www.cranecams.com

this crane cam is the same yet has slightly more conservative lobe design.
it will tend to run quieter at idle.

This crane Blue Racer 280-2H Cam is another example of a similar cam with less extreme ramps design.

The amount of valvetain noise at idle is a combination of cam lobe design, lifter internal clearances, lifter bore clearances, oil temp and oil pressure and oil viscosity.
You can try changing the oil to a thicker oil 40weight or 50weight.
I found this effective on my motor with the XE comp cam.
Increasing the oil viscosity changes the hyd lifter bleed down rate at idle which will reduce the lifter noise some.
Other wise you'll have to change the cam.
Like I said there is no free lunch. The Comp cams Extreme cams and Lunati Voodoo HYD cams take the lobe shape and lobe seat design to the max.
These cams are intended for the street racer/ bracket racer who doesn't mind giving up a bit of quietness at idle to get a bit more ultimate performance.
Not the best cam for the average cruiser who wants a quite valve train at idle.

[wixomhead]

fascinating and thanks for the info.

Now let me tell you that this cam was selected by my eng builder as good match for my 8-71 BDS blower and 2x750 BGs.

Since I broke the motor in with the blower installed and developed annoying exh gasket leak, all of the noise (I suppose) must have been masking noisy valve train. I'm also running 10W-40, I believe.

All of this came about last fri night when my builder was gone for the weekend. I removed the blower belt to validate exh gasket fixed, and absolutely panicked when I found I couldn't eliminate lifter tick, expected the worst down there.

So it look/sounds like:

1. Noise is normal
2. My cam.lifters broke in great
3. I tore down the whole ting for nothing :-(
4. If I'm not doing any damage, then I don't care how loud the tick is- the blower solves for that

Thanks much, very helpful

[F-BIRD'88]

I would not have chosen that cam for a blower motor.
I would have used Crane #354551 Powermax H-288-2 for a mild/moderate blower motor.

[F-BIRD'88]

Noise ( in a hyd cammed valvetrain )is not normal.
There are afew other unknown factors here eg valve spring pressure, push rod length/ correct valvetrain geometry.
Inspect the rocker arm balls and rocker arm ball seat for scoring/ overheating.
You're actually leaving a lot of potential power on the table with the cam you are using.
Don;t know the specifics of the rest of your combo or how you use the car but....
For a street/strip blown 460 ford I would have used a custom grind cam with specificaly blower friendly timing specs
Something like a 236°-246°@.050" 112°-114°LSA custom hyd grind will make a good bit more power overall without getting too carried away for a street motor.


There is not a lot of "off the shelf" BB 460 Ford cams available like for a SBC.
Both crane and comp offer custom cam service to get your the right cam for your application.

A supercharged motor has so much excessive torque and throttle response by its very nature, you do not need to resort to extreme/noisey camshaft lobe designes to get power.

You're better off overall using a more conservative lobe shape with the right valve timing to get all the power you want and longer cam/lifter life and a lot less idle noise.

Excessive hyd valvetrain noise at idle is not normal and is not nessessary.

[66GMC]

Hi Wix,

I just experienced a similar thing with my 454 ... except I wasn't as lucky. I wiped a lobe off the cam.

Same scenario, sort of.
Fired the engine up with open headers ... and didn't hear the ticking until after I put mufflers on.

I'm going shopping for a hydraulic roller this time, I think.
Maybe I'll start my own thread with the whole long, sad, story ... and ask others for their advice and comments.

[wixomhead]

66GMC: Yeah, I've heard Hyd Roller is a no brainer. I was also told it would be at least $850 for all the hardware. Lemme know how it goes!

F-Bird: Great info, thanks for taking the time to share all of this. I visited my builder with my problem, who agreed my cam and lifters broke in perfectly and also indicated that these cams ARE noisy. He recommended I put everygting back together and run Joe Gibbs XP4 (15W-50)

And, I seized on you comment:

"You can try changing the oil to a thicker oil 40weight or 50weight.
I found this effective on my motor with the XE comp cam."

Frankly, I forget what weight installed after break in, but I would guess it was 10W30. But yeah, after I climb out of this hole I'm in I will try this, in hindsight I should have tried this before breaking everything down last weekend.

AND: Here's much more info than you all may care to read, but I'm going to post it in the event that it helps others learning the business of cam selection/break in/making mistakes. By the way, this motor is an 8:1 forged 460 .030 8-71 blower ... 2x750 Barry Grant M Demons ... Unilite 20 deg initial timing 34 all in at 3500...connected to C6 Auto trans and Ford Auburn 3.89 rear end installed in a 4500+ pound 1971 Lincoln. Its intended for "spirited driving" on the street.

As far as Cam selection: Long ago I purch a complete 8-71 blower kit from Blower Drive Service which included their reocmmended, "Stage II" spec hyd flat cam for 429/460 ford (street application). The cam was made by Iskendarian. Specs:

Lift: 540/.565
Dur @ 50: 221/232
Lobe Ctr: 110°

Here's prob more info than you care to read, but maybe it will help other interested in this topic. FYI: This motor is installed in a 4500+ pound Lincoln Mark III with C6 Auto trans / 3.89 9" Ford Auburn rear / intended to be used on the street for ... fun.

BDS specifically indicates they have done tons of testing (of course they have) and found 110 lobe ctrs are best for gasoline engines; 112/114 give prod even moe cyl pressures, best for alch/meth but not very nice on gas.
Interestingly, every one of their 'matched' cams have 110 centers.

Whatever. I destroyed the cam and lifters. I assumed I didn't break in properly (the assembled engine sat for 2 years before I fired it, and while I ran the motor for 20 mins at 1800 RPM (per my builder's recommendation) after a few hundred miles all the lobes wore down and the lifters wouldn't even pull up from out of heir bores).

Now I orig thought I screwed up because a) the cam assy lube "dried out" after two years of sitting...? and b) I didn't run the RPMs high enough? So I replaced the cam and lifters using same parts fo BDS. Sure enough, I ruined ths second set (!). Finally, I spoke with others (hot rodders, cam companies, engine builders, my wife) who thought my builder should not have used dual valve springs (max RPM 6000 on he street), or at least should have told me to remove the innner spring during break in. Whatever, this was a hard, time consuming lesson to learn for an amateur mechanic like me.

Next I went to reputable race shop (25 years in biz building winning NHRA motors). I had them rebuild the motor using their recommended top end. They questioned the spring pressures, too. They recommended a hyd roller cam - or a more economical Comp Cams Extreme Energy std flat hyd using the following specs with single springs.

Lift: .515/.520
Dur @ 50: 218/224
Lobe sep: 110

I can see this cam is a bit 'smaller' than the BDS recommended cam, but I trust the builders to help me do what's best for my app.

At the end of the season - provided all runs well this summer, I am definitely going to investigate poss of opening up greater power potential per your cam ideas. Thanks again.

[emperor91108]

My lifters are noisy when I haven't run the car for a while, but after warming up the engine and driving it a little it seems to go away. I have always though it is because the hydraulic lifters need to fill back up with oil. As stated earlier I would also run a 15W-50 oil after the break-in period.